tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post1483170384130900234..comments2024-03-24T05:54:23.612-05:00Comments on Weedon's Blog: An Interesting QuestionWilliam Weedonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-14027491862410576822008-07-27T15:34:00.000-05:002008-07-27T15:34:00.000-05:00Well if you don't LIKE the way pianists chord thin...Well if you don't LIKE the way pianists chord things, I wish to high heaven that folks would stop ASKING this pianist to write the chords for them. ;) No, I had nothing to do with the work, but I do have a few folks (don't worry, Cindi and Crystal, I won't mention your names) who are always asking me to write in the chords for them - and I despise doing it precisely for the reason you mention: the guitar doesn't need all the chords and choosing which to leave in and which to drop is really a guitarist's business, not mine!William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-6925648367633268852008-07-26T17:02:00.000-05:002008-07-26T17:02:00.000-05:00"Isn't this magic!?!http://www.lcms.org/pages/rpag..."Isn't this magic!?!<BR/>http://www.lcms.org/pages/rpage.asp?NavID=13682<BR/>Charming!"<BR/><BR/>Off-topic, but as a guitarist, I welcome this publication with joy. John Kleinig's wife, Claire, did such a work for the Australians. Hopefully, this was chorded by a real guitarist and not a piano player transcribing chords, which is all too often the case. Piano players tend to overchord pieces. For some excellent guitar playing that honors our hymnal tradition, I suggest a listen to my friend Fred Baue (http://www.fredbaue.com/)<BR/><BR/>I'd be more concerned about this: http://www.lcms.org/pages/rpage.asp?NavID=13627WM Cwirlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12317197804776939257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-26811354089561878802008-07-26T16:53:00.000-05:002008-07-26T16:53:00.000-05:00I agree with this. The LCMS institutionalizes cha...I agree with this. The LCMS institutionalizes changes in practice by recognizing the current practice(s) without dealing with the underlying doctrine.<BR/><BR/>One glaring difficulty on the women's ordination issue is that the discussion has largely gone 1) the Bible forbids it; 2) that settles it. This failure to speak positively and Christologically on behalf of a male occupied Office makes the entire argument one of Law. It's essentially a fundamentalist type argument that doesn't address or even acknowledge the Christocentricity of the pastoral office, nor does it fully unpack the typology of "male and female."WM Cwirlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12317197804776939257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-62551038302101319792008-07-26T16:47:00.000-05:002008-07-26T16:47:00.000-05:00Hi Kate,I think the problem you cite was with the ...Hi Kate,<BR/><BR/>I think the problem you cite was with the DP's understanding of vicarage, not the vicarage program itself. Just because he doesn't understand or has an incorrect understanding of the role of vicar does not justify jettisoning the entire program.<BR/><BR/>Again, I see the vicarage program as different than simply a "lay person" functioning in the role of pastor. He is in training, he is in an accredited program, and he is fully intending to become ordained. He is also evaluated, and what the supervising pastor records is weighed heavily by the seminary faculty. He has been trained in homiletics and is approved by the seminary prior to assignment. He also bears the title of "Rev. Seminarian". While not ordained, that says something. <BR/><BR/>Believe me, being in the Atlantic District where we have had some very serious issues with lay folk assuming the role of pastor (to the point of even consecration of of the Eucharist) I stand against this violation of our Confessions. They do not have a regular call and it is sinful for them to do this. Our DP does his best to keep it under control, but it often happens behind his back.<BR/><BR/><BR/>No doubt there are abuses of the vicarage program, but the abuses should not dictate whether a program continues. <BR/><BR/>I do not see this as a confessional issue since the vicar is functioning under the supervision, direction, guidance and evaluation of the pastor, who is regularly called and ordained. Both pastor and vicar understand that if a vicar errs, it is the Pastor whom God holds responsible.<BR/><BR/>There is a balance that needs to be struck here-- How do we, on the one hand, not violate Augsburg XIV as antinomians but, on the other hand, not become so narrow or pharisaical in our understanding of AC XIV that we hurt ourselves. <BR/><BR/>Personally, I think that lay ministry gone awry violates AC XIV, but the vicarage program does not. I think we need to be careful that we don't become so legalistic in our interpretation that we hurt a program that is "meet, right and salutary" simply because there is misunderstanding or misuse occurring.J.G.F.https://www.blogger.com/profile/06591679766794536970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-67789120983840702008-07-26T15:48:00.000-05:002008-07-26T15:48:00.000-05:00I've been thinking more about this. The real stren...I've been thinking more about this. The real strength of Pastor Weedon's argument is worthy of continued attention.<BR/><BR/>The LCMS has already demonstrated that it is willing to do (in principle) what every other mainline liberal denomination has done: Introduce new doctrines by introducing new practices.<BR/><BR/>Act first, cook up a theological excuse later. This is how we ended up where we are on AC XIV. <BR/><BR/>"Hey, we're already letting X and Y preach and administer the sacraments, how can we forbid Z to do it?"<BR/><BR/>"Oh, by the way, we really should find a way of institutionalizing this. How about a convention resolution?"<BR/><BR/>The long-liberal leadership of the ELCA, the PCUSA, the ECUSA and the UMC learned years ago that it is easier to use the "exception," the "emergency," the "expediency," and the "once in a life-time event" to discard old doctrines and introduce new ones.<BR/><BR/>It's the "We're already doing it, we can't stop now" argument.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-54045225976065756972008-07-26T15:44:00.000-05:002008-07-26T15:44:00.000-05:00Although, William, the interesting thing (so far) ...Although, William, the interesting thing (so far) in the history of Missouri is that she has declined merger - oh, she'd accept others into HER - Suomi, the Slovaks - but she's never agreed to become other than the One doing the absorption. So, I'm skeptical about her "merging" with any faction of the ELCA. But these are strange times and what has never been may well yet happen.William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-46549904265328768072008-07-26T13:27:00.000-05:002008-07-26T13:27:00.000-05:00Strictly speaking, the LC-MS does not ordain but t...Strictly speaking, the LC-MS does not ordain but the churches that comprise the LC-MS do. That ordination is administered by the district president as "bishop" (loosely speaking), is de jure humano, of course.<BR/><BR/>The question is whether the LC-MS as an institutional body, governed by the consensus of its constituent congregations, will tolerate the ordination of women to the pastoral office. The traditionalist side of the ELCA seems able to have a measure of liturgical and confessional conservatism alongside the novelty of ordained females (see the Society of the Holy Trinity, for example).<BR/><BR/>What is likely to happen in the LCMS is the continual erosion of the pastoral office with its distinct authorities and responsibilities, as has been going on for decades, so that one will eventually have women doing pastoral things without being "ordained" into any particular office. I wouldn't be surprised if such things aren't already going on.<BR/><BR/>Since the LC-MS is held together by the consensus of its constituent churches (unity of doctrine and practice), a split over this issue is inevitable, as one side seeks to guard the traditional and catholic understanding of the pastoral office over and against the pragmatic protestantism that would like to obscure the boundaries of the holy office and turn it into a mere tasks and functions.<BR/><BR/>Unity with the ELCA also figures into this equation and should not be overlooked. Take careful note of the Lutheran Church in Australia for how two bodies on opposite sides of the women's ordination issue can come together. It would not surprise me if there are already discussions afoot to broker a mainstream merger of the muddy moderate middle of the ELCA and LCMS, with each side jettisoning it's "wing nuts," the ELCA on the left and the LCMS on the right.<BR/><BR/>Stranger things have happened.WM Cwirlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12317197804776939257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-14822922533341974692008-07-26T10:27:00.000-05:002008-07-26T10:27:00.000-05:00Greetings in the Name of Christ Jesus!This is a go...Greetings in the Name of Christ Jesus!<BR/><BR/>This is a good question to probe and debate, since I too predict the ordination of women in LCMS. Time will indeed tell. I am a pastor in Lutheran Church-Canada, and we too have similar challenges. Pr. Wilken is correct to point out how those in favor of Women's ordination miss interpret the order of creation in Genesis 1-3. This becomes the lense by which they interpret the rest of Holy Writ in regards to the issue, including Galatians 3:26-28!!! Which by the way, has already been discussed by Pr. Wilken and Dr. L. Brighton on Issues etc. in early 2008? If you haven't already, go to the wittenberg trail and check out Pr. Mike Keith's presentation/disscusion on 'can a lay person consecrate the elements of the Lord's Supper?'Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-85336469076988673702008-07-26T08:18:00.000-05:002008-07-26T08:18:00.000-05:00John,I once had the opportunity to ask a DP, "If a...John,<BR/>I once had the opportunity to ask a DP, "If a layman was (were?) president of one of our universities and he was asked to preach for a Concordia Sunday, what would you do?" The DP said that he could preach--after all, vicars preach, in spite of not being 'rightly called and ordained.'" So, I do believe that simply because these theologian-wannabees use the argument of vicars, we should seriously consider getting rid of the vicarage program. Besides, even some field workers deliver the absolution--which is no real absolution, imo.<BR/><BR/>KatieAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-15461499225847185752008-07-25T21:54:00.000-05:002008-07-25T21:54:00.000-05:00Dr. Tighe,Daystar and Jesus First are two peas in ...Dr. Tighe,<BR/><BR/>Daystar and Jesus First are two peas in a pod, apparently; but JF is the more popular front and Daystar seems to be less active at the moment (though it was more vocal about WO).<BR/><BR/>And as others have noted, yes. the DP's have driven trucks through that little loophole. The loophole itself is in utter contradiction to the Augsburg Confession.William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-79962632183137892052008-07-25T14:41:00.000-05:002008-07-25T14:41:00.000-05:00Just one post-script to what I wrote:I have never ...Just one post-script to what I wrote:<BR/><BR/>I have never witnessed anyone making the argument that because a vicar preaches that he also has the right to preach. I believe our congregations understand the role of a vicar vis a vis a "lay minister" (which I do believe is a contradiction in terms).<BR/><BR/>Sorry, don't mean to hijack the thread.... back to the discussion.<BR/><BR/>Blessed Lord's Day to all of you!<BR/><BR/>JohhJ.G.F.https://www.blogger.com/profile/06591679766794536970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-37935562343777372982008-07-25T12:45:00.000-05:002008-07-25T12:45:00.000-05:00I don't think I agree that the vicarage program is...I don't think I agree that the vicarage program is a problem. While not ordained, Vicars are supervised by an ordained pastor in a very close way-- I've always viewed it a bit like a paramedic- not a physician, but the eyes, ears and hands of a physician. I have always understood a Vicar's supervised preaching to be under the Pastor's call. <BR/><BR/>A vicar is undergoing specific and intentional training to be ordained. Somehow, I see this as different than a lay person with no training and no intent of ordination.<BR/><BR/>While some may argue there is no difference, I believe there is. You wouldn't have a pastor in the LCMS without him being a vicar first. Just food for thought.<BR/><BR/>JohnJ.G.F.https://www.blogger.com/profile/06591679766794536970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-81974562696775827932008-07-25T12:25:00.000-05:002008-07-25T12:25:00.000-05:00The seminaries should never have started the vicar...The seminaries should never have started the vicarage program...<BR/><BR/>People see laymen who are attending seminary in the pulpit preaching and wonder why any layperson can't preach.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-70870846903712244742008-07-25T10:15:00.000-05:002008-07-25T10:15:00.000-05:00I would note that since the Orthodox Church is not...I would note that since the Orthodox Church is not congregational, allowing women on to the Church Council is not a big deal - it is merely advisory; like checking in with the leading lights of a congregation before making a decision, which is the bishop's and priest's alone. Perhaps, if a Lutheran pastor were seen to be the only real authority in the local congregation, then some of these issues would become moot. <BR/><BR/>Orthodox women in the Pacific Northwest and Alaska wield influence and 'authority' in the church in the same way as unordained men - through holiness, alms, investment of time, respect given them by others and earned by the person, etc. Women wield all sorts of influence, but in the same way that mothers, wives, daughters and sisters always have - even in 'patriarchal' societies.123https://www.blogger.com/profile/14514075641944568806noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-27144000331613072322008-07-25T10:09:00.000-05:002008-07-25T10:09:00.000-05:00It's a bad argument, in any case. The largest Chri...It's a bad argument, in any case. The largest Christian body in Alaska is the Orthodox Church. We're not going matriarchal.Fr. Gregory Hogghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01829108455227450650noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-46377356551839318712008-07-25T09:59:00.000-05:002008-07-25T09:59:00.000-05:00Here is what Luther says:Now when the devil saw Go...Here is what Luther says:<BR/>Now when the devil saw God building His holy church, he took no holiday but built his chapel next door, larger than God's church. And this is how he did it: He saw that God took outward things — Baptism, Word, Sacrament, Keys — and made His church holy through these means. Since he is always aping God and trying to imitate and improve everything God does, he, too, took outward things that were to be means to holiness. . . . Bells are to drive away the devils in storms; St. Anthony's knives stab the devil; the blessing of herbs drives away poisonous worms; certain blessings heal cows, ward off milk thieves, put out fires; certain writings give security in war and, at other times, against iron, fire, water, wild beasts, etc. Monastic life, Masses, and the like offer a more than ordinary salvation. Who can tell it all? Why, no need was so trifling that the devil did not institute a sacrament or a sacred charm (Heilthum) for it, whereby one may find aid and help against it. Besides, he has also had prophets, seers, and wise men who have been able to reveal secret things and restore stolen goods.<BR/>Oh, he is equipped far more than God with sacraments, prophets, apostles, evangelists; and his chapels are far larger than God's church; and he also has far more people devoted to his holiness than God has. Moreover, people believe more easily and more gladly in his promises, in his sacraments, in his prophets, than in Christ's. He is the great god of the world. Christ calls him "prince of the world" (John 12:31), and Paul speaks of him as "god of this world" (2 Cor. 4:4). (#1371 from What Luther Says).<BR/><BR/>A personal observation:<BR/>I once attended a Jesus First conference out of curiosity. I suggest watching the NWD for where Women's ordination will begin. While I was there, a presentation was given on ministry in the NWD (Northwest District). Basically, they said will use the excuse that the native people in Alaska are used to a martiarchal society, not a patriarchal one, therefore the women should be the "leaders" (president for now, pastors later?)of the congregations.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-27434807374211655742008-07-24T22:08:00.000-05:002008-07-24T22:08:00.000-05:00Anatasia makes a good point: the East generally o...Anatasia makes a good point: the East generally offers a "We don't know" about the validity of Eucharists outside Eastern ordination. Rome, at least the Rome I knew, was characteristically more concrete: ordinations apart from a bishop in apostolic succession are no ordinations at all therefore the Eucharists performed by the ordinands are no Eucharists at all.<BR/><BR/>Thus, an EO priest is a true priest offering a true Eucharist, but an Anglican priest is not a priest and his Eucharist no Eucharist, though both are apart from Rome. Easy to see where a Lutheran pastor fits in this -- nowhere.<BR/><BR/>Coming out of Rome, I read Luther and the BOC as the works of others coming out of Rome. It seems to me they were at pains to maintain two aspects to this, as with most things, and if one ignores one of them, one ends up RC again, or if one ignores the other, ends up "Protestant" in the current sense.<BR/><BR/>Re ordination, that would be: maintaining on the one hand that a sacrament of holy orders is a fiction laid over the manner in which the church selects her ministers and is not Rome's to adjudicate or administer, but maintaining on the other that this is not to say the church does not have a manner of selecting her ministers or that one may so function independent of that manner, the call.<BR/><BR/>WELS elders quite commonly assist in the distribution of Communion, but not the consecration. I can understand that with a call letter this could be allowed in certain circumstances in WELS. The way it was explained to me, I as an elder and pastor as a pastor are no different in having the power or the ability to consecrate the Eucharist, however I as an elder have no call to do so and the pastor does, therefore I don't consecrate and he does.<BR/><BR/>I think this is what Pastor is getting at in distinguishing power from authority. We maintain there is both. Rome maintains there is both. But we no not maintain authority depends on Rome or that the power is derived from the conference of Roman authority. Unfortunately, I think there are those among us who -- similar to what happens in the "adiaphora" wars -- think that rejecting Roman authority and power means there is no authority.<BR/><BR/>So some head for Rome while others make us American evangelicals with more liturgy and sacraments than usual.<BR/><BR/>Meanwhile, real "Lutheranism", the correct exposition of Scripture in the BOC, lies there right under our noses.Past Elderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10541968132598367551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-73656727273573558462008-07-24T21:59:00.000-05:002008-07-24T21:59:00.000-05:00William Tighe wrote: "...have the "excep...William Tighe wrote: "...have the "exceptional circumstances" been given a wide latitude of interpretation by District Presidents?"<BR/><BR/>Short answer: Yes. The exceptional circumstance or emergency situation has basically been taken to mean do whatever you want & just call it pastoral discretion. This has led to laymen, including vicars, doing Word & Sacrament day in & day out even when the supervising pastor or other pastors are available. <BR/><BR/>I know this has happened numerous times in the Nebraska District when ordained ministers have been willing to help out congregations in need & the dp has just licensed deacons or vicars to do it instead.<BR/><BR/>One of the worst situations happened when an elder at St. John's in Seward consecrated & distributed the Lord's Supper when the vacancy pastor couldn't make it because of a snow storm. The really sickening part is that there were three ordained pastors, either professors at Concordia-Seward or district officers, in church that day, who were members of the congregation & none of them said a word. The excuse given afterward was that this was an emergency & the congregation had voted previously to allow elders to preside at the Lord's Supper if necessary.<BR/><BR/>Theoretically, that situation has been addressed, but it shows the callousness of many people's regard for the Office of the Ministry & the Lord's Sacraments.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-24813493983094148222008-07-24T20:34:00.000-05:002008-07-24T20:34:00.000-05:00One last time ...From the linked document (1989):"...One last time ...<BR/><BR/>From the linked document (1989):<BR/><BR/>"The supervising pastor will normally administer Holy Communion. However, "in exceptional circumstances, when no ordained clergy is available and the congregation would otherwise be deprived of the Sacrament for a prolonged period of time, the licensed layman will preside, when specifically authorized to do so by the congregation and with the approval of a supervising pastor and the District President."<BR/><BR/>Is this what is under discussion on this thread, or have the "exceptional circumstances" been given a wide latitude of interpretation by District Presidents?William Tighehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16634494183165592707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-23712111001788817802008-07-24T20:28:00.000-05:002008-07-24T20:28:00.000-05:00Here it is again:http://www.ndlcms.org/congregatio...Here it is again:<BR/><BR/>http://www.ndlcms.org/congreg<BR/>ational/laity/1989%20convention.htm<BR/><BR/>Also, could anyone give me a thumbnail sketch of the differences and similarities in outlook, membership, purposes and goals of the "Daystar" and "Jesus First" organizations in the Missouri Synos?William Tighehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16634494183165592707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-45237491162392589282008-07-24T20:26:00.001-05:002008-07-24T20:26:00.001-05:00Neo-gnosticism? Maybe. More likely just plain ol...Neo-gnosticism? Maybe. More likely just plain old garden variety gnosticism. It was enlightening to read Presbyterian Philip J. Lee's 'Against the Protestant Gnostics' a few years back. A very fine treatment of the problem this man sees in American Protestantism. <BR/><BR/>As far as "internal calls," I suspect that the notion of an internal call came with a creeping feminization of American religious life, documented in Ann Douglas' 'The Feminization of American Culture.'Jim Huffmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16666507238123326223noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-77942715452508380522008-07-24T20:26:00.000-05:002008-07-24T20:26:00.000-05:00According to this documenthttp://www.ndlcms.org/co...According to this document<BR/><BR/>http://www.ndlcms.org/congregational/laity/1989%20convention.htm<BR/><BR/>there were in 1989 about 135 laymen in the Missouri Synod exercising a word and Sacrament ministry. Would anyone have an idea how many there might be today?William Tighehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16634494183165592707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-68678291698980016932008-07-24T19:55:00.000-05:002008-07-24T19:55:00.000-05:00I will give this debate to Pr. Wilken simply on th...I will give this debate to Pr. Wilken simply on this basis:<BR/><BR/>If you were to quote AC XIV to the average pastor or lay person they would just scratch their head and say "what?"<BR/><BR/>Although I agree with Pr. Weedon's point, of course.<BR/><BR/>Jon TownsendAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-88405433713098677082008-07-24T19:14:00.000-05:002008-07-24T19:14:00.000-05:00Just look at DayStar. They are promoting a denial...Just look at DayStar. They are promoting a denial of the order of creation, a denial of the third use of the law. This is neo-gnosticism. <BR/><BR/>This newly warmed over gospel reductionism in "conservative" rhetoric is wooing many.<BR/><BR/>This is where Scott Murray's book on the third use of the law is very important. <BR/><BR/>This goes right along with the schwaermerei notion of an "internal call" to the ministry - feeling called. Did Jonah, Moses, Jeremiah or St. Paul feel called? It is about the externum verbum.<BR/><BR/>Denial of the third use, gospel reductionism and gnosticism all go together.Rev. John Frahmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11937327450254152002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-64262336513828624032008-07-24T12:38:00.000-05:002008-07-24T12:38:00.000-05:00You are right and I was wrong about the source of ...You are right and I was wrong about the source of the clegy girl dolls. Thank you for kindly pointing it out.<BR/><BR/>Wherever they come from, they are inappropriate. I'm glad Concordia isn't selling them.<BR/><BR/>Perhaps I could get a pair of those "Here I Stand" socks for my pastor. He could wear them in the pulpit next Reformation Sunday. :-)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com