tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post5668258141544037395..comments2024-03-24T05:54:23.612-05:00Comments on Weedon's Blog: CallWilliam Weedonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-36781846051697232042012-02-18T07:40:28.156-06:002012-02-18T07:40:28.156-06:00Terry,
It's not ad hominem to suggest that a ...Terry,<br /><br />It's not ad hominem to suggest that a person's background and experiences influence his perceptions. I know that you are a bright man, but (and the fault is no doubt mine) you are not seeing my point at all. I have no wish to argue incessantly with you, as it doesn't seem healthy or productive. So allow me, once again, to try and gently step away.Christopher Esgethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10440955337317194786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-47321704546794083422012-02-17T23:59:32.230-06:002012-02-17T23:59:32.230-06:00Something about the speaker that dismisses what he...Something about the speaker that dismisses what he speaks from consideration. Ad hominem.<br /><br />Do we believe priest is as it is defined? No.Terry Maherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17122266461403246084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-31907479387044055012012-02-17T15:25:00.070-06:002012-02-17T15:25:00.070-06:00Terry,
You continue to prove my point that you ca...Terry,<br /><br />You continue to prove my point that you can only see this issue through the lens of a former papist. I doubt that will ever change, so I'm just going to drop it. Cheers.Christopher Esgethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10440955337317194786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-63222705859352329672012-02-17T08:41:34.652-06:002012-02-17T08:41:34.652-06:00The priesthood of all believers is exactly why &qu...The priesthood of all believers is exactly why "we ain't got no priests".<br /><br />I am not James Joyce writing Ulysses here. "Priest", from Wictionary: A religious clergyman who is trained to perform services or sacrifices at a church or temple. <br /><br />Do we have such? Yes. Ought we call them that? No, because in our belief priesthood is not at all a matter of religious clergymen trained to perform services or sacrifices at a church or temple. And because the Greek word which "priest" has come to translate carries no such meaning either.Terry Maherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17122266461403246084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-79962377164564226112012-02-16T16:11:27.327-06:002012-02-16T16:11:27.327-06:00@Larry Luder,
Thanks for your comments. I've ...@Larry Luder,<br /><br />Thanks for your comments. I've enjoyed this discussion.<br /><br />Every good wish in Christ,<br />ChristopherChristopher Esgethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10440955337317194786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-22064895391942361362012-02-16T16:08:48.094-06:002012-02-16T16:08:48.094-06:00Terry, I think our problem is that you think the w...Terry, I think our problem is that you think the word "priest" absolutely carries with it the RCC meaning (correct me if I'm wrong), whereas I think it need not. Thus, I disagree entirely with your repeated statement, "We ain't got no priests." Witness the persistent talk in Lutheran circles about the "priesthood of all believers," etc. Ask any Lutheran if he believes in that, and I think the vast majority will say "yes." Thus clearly we have priests in some sense, and I would argue that pastors also serve a priestly function. (You'll even find this in standard discussions of liturgical posture by the minister: facing the altar he acts sacrificially, facing the people he acts sacramentally.)<br /><br />When you say "Presbyter does not mean priest," you mean, it doesn't mean priest <i>as you define it</i>. I think your history of papism, and reaction against, is coloring your view. I don't mean that as an insult, by the way.<br /><br />Our discussion can probably be boiled down to this: you get really nervous when you hear romanizing talk. I get really nervous when I hear perfectly Lutheran words and concepts tarnished by being branded Romish. That's probably something we'll never get past, but a healthy church is one that's willing to hear both sides of that discussion. FWIW.Christopher Esgethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10440955337317194786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-41928228640750408822012-02-16T08:36:38.569-06:002012-02-16T08:36:38.569-06:00Terry,
Wow, 61! You’re Ancient, at least in the e...Terry,<br /><br />Wow, 61! You’re Ancient, at least in the eyes of my children. I’m 61 too.<br /><br />Musing on vocation has led me to prayers for the unemployed and underemployed in addition to the ongoing prayers for the Holy Spirit to guide Rev Weedon in his prayerful considerations. For people in my area, opportunities are not as they once were and the choices the lay make is quite different than that of one who was been to called to be an overseer. There is some but little thought put in choosing between food on the table or not nowadays. <br /><br />Joy and PeaceLarry Luderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12101494569807214010noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-88779701537610545572012-02-15T23:36:21.027-06:002012-02-15T23:36:21.027-06:00PPS. Actually, for once we might benefit from Rom...PPS. Actually, for once we might benefit from Rome -- even they admit that in the NT the distinction between overseer and presbyter is not held with the exactness of the later distinction of bishop/priest, and that that is not strictly Biblical but came over time as presbyters came to be those who functioned in the stead of an overseer over larger areas.<br /><br />Judas H Priest, OSB.Terry Maherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17122266461403246084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-61536934863977355152012-02-15T23:18:28.518-06:002012-02-15T23:18:28.518-06:00PS. I'm 61. Oh, and we ain't got no prie...PS. I'm 61. Oh, and we ain't got no priests. Some wannabes maybe, but no priests.Terry Maherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17122266461403246084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-64362991065811949152012-02-15T22:34:32.234-06:002012-02-15T22:34:32.234-06:00I doubt, though, that if Pr Weedon had been called...<i>I doubt, though, that if Pr Weedon had been called to teach at a seminary we would be having this conversation.</i><br /><br />Rev Esget,<br /><br />You are right absolutely, 100% correct. Maybe I’m over reacting to the position that seems to me to a calling. I’m actually glad that the conversation continued and you worked you way to where you are at. Out of curiosity, I use word like the Eucharist and Mass also. Is that bothersome? Just so you know, I am Lutheran. I wouldn’t be one if I didn’t think Jesus was one too. The language I use is biblical and also found in the Book of Concord which we all subscribe to.Larry Luderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12101494569807214010noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-55641692963842395132012-02-15T20:52:14.398-06:002012-02-15T20:52:14.398-06:00One must be careful not to fall into the error of ...One must be careful not to fall into the error of the opposite ditch. Why is it that everyone is a priest except the presbyter? (My favorite thing in the LCMS is that we call the part-time pastors with a side job "worker-priests." But don't you dare call the full-time pastor a priest! Gotta love Lutheranism...) The presbyter continually offers up the sacrifice of prayer and thanksgiving, which is the NT priestly service. Probably the most common thing a pastor hears from his parishioners is, "Pastor, will you pray for me about _____?" <br /><br />Whatever we call them, though, we should do away with the horrible term "Elder." ;)Christopher Esgethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10440955337317194786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-47401656356073640612012-02-15T20:08:34.799-06:002012-02-15T20:08:34.799-06:00To be really correct, we should call our pastors e...To be really correct, we should call our pastors elders, and our elders something else. There is nothing in the Greek word from which "priest" loosely comes to denote anything whatever like what is meant by priest. We have presbyters in the NT sense, and they are our pastors, who are not priests in the English sense. So just call them pastors, and avoid all the confusion that has to be explained away, which comes not from following Roman usage, but is a situation created by their false doctrine on the matter.Terry Maherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17122266461403246084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-56736300065782596292012-02-15T15:08:16.883-06:002012-02-15T15:08:16.883-06:00Chris,
While I agree with you, you're forgett...Chris,<br /><br />While I agree with you, you're forgetting one very important thing.<br /><br />Terry is REALLY old. Like older than Weedon old.Rev. Charles Lehmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09089242798450053313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-85202860727048040922012-02-15T15:03:44.665-06:002012-02-15T15:03:44.665-06:00There is great confusion over language in our day,...There is great confusion over language in our day, and I think it would be helpful in going back to a biblical way of speaking. This is why I find the term presbyter should be reserved for clergy, and if priest is derived therefrom, perhaps its not such a bad word to use. But the worst thing that can happen is to assume that since the Roman church uses terms a certain way, we must follow their definitions. Pastors must teach people the correct meanings of biblical and churchly words. <br /><br />So yes, Terry, we do have priests (presbyters), and we ought not to have Elders (for a layman by definition cannot be a presbyter).Christopher Esgethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10440955337317194786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-34655301029054396292012-02-15T10:14:26.590-06:002012-02-15T10:14:26.590-06:00This comment has been removed by the author.Christopher Esgethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10440955337317194786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-56359130060415321442012-02-15T10:07:46.155-06:002012-02-15T10:07:46.155-06:00Actually, I believe the quote from Catholic.org is...Actually, I believe the quote from Catholic.org is saying that there is no actual equivalent for the word "priest" in modern languages and it is therefore a derivative. German uses the word "priester".<br /><br />From an Eastern Orthodox point of view:<br /><br /><i>The word "priest" came about simply as an abreviation for the word "presbuteros."<br /><br />The French shortened it to "prest" and then in English it became "priest." You would never know this reading modern English translations of the Bible which are very Protestantized. They would have you believe "priest" refers to Old Testament ministers. The word there, I believe is not at all the Greek "Presbuteros" but rather the Hebrew "Cohen." <br />Therefore, I was surprised to find out that Priest is actually a much more accurate word for the New Testament minister rather than the Old."</i><br /><br /><br />For what it's worth.<br /><br />ChristineAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-32452437308010188172012-02-15T09:45:22.521-06:002012-02-15T09:45:22.521-06:00The problem is, "priest" is used to mean...The problem is, "priest" is used to mean "presbyter", but "presbyter" does not mean "priest". Even the Catholic source cited admits that, and that the word has taken on -- through their misuse -- the meaning of sacerdos, which does mean priest.<br /><br />Presbyter is no more a reference to priest in the RC/EO sense than it is to elder in the sense of the position I had when I was an elder.<br /><br />We ain't got no priests.Terry Maherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17122266461403246084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-73268465438724553222012-02-15T07:53:05.923-06:002012-02-15T07:53:05.923-06:00You are in our prayers, Pr. Weedon! (And could you...You are in our prayers, Pr. Weedon! (And could you still marry my sister and Chris in July no matter what? :))Emommyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00948690298244727347noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-78628136652980458082012-02-15T06:29:04.222-06:002012-02-15T06:29:04.222-06:00But, if "priest" means "presbyter,&...But, if "priest" means "presbyter," then we do. That was my only point.Christopher Esgethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10440955337317194786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-68706080885697375482012-02-15T00:33:42.094-06:002012-02-15T00:33:42.094-06:00Judas H, I just said that!
"Priest" dep...Judas H, I just said that!<br /><br />"Priest" depends entirely on "bishop".<br /><br />This, btw, is the source of both the recognition by the RCC of EO sacraments, and the ruckus over Archbishop Lefevre's ordination of bishops. In both cases, the ordinations are sacramentally valid, but in the latter they are canonically illicit. Whereas in our (Lutheran) case they are both invalid and illicit. Thus the RC/EO thing is seen as a split within the church, whereas the Reformation is a split from the church, and thus also why they crapped their cassocks and sent Ratzinger to stomp on the SSPX after those ordinations, since these are real bishops but illicit ones.<br /><br />In their eyes. We know the whole apparatus and its mechanics to be pure fiction.<br /><br />We ain't got no priests. For that matter, neither does anybody else.Terry Maherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17122266461403246084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-8316330207923137922012-02-14T15:21:00.871-06:002012-02-14T15:21:00.871-06:00Pastor Esget, from:
http://www.catholic.org/
It&...Pastor Esget, from:<br /><br />http://www.catholic.org/<br /><br />It's a website of orthodox Catholic material.<br /><br />ChristineAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-42831469739389932232012-02-14T15:05:18.880-06:002012-02-14T15:05:18.880-06:00Where does that come from, Christine?Where does that come from, Christine?Christopher Esgethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10440955337317194786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-11813980570085847802012-02-14T14:44:35.806-06:002012-02-14T14:44:35.806-06:00Re Pastor Esget's comments re "presbyter&...Re Pastor Esget's comments re "presbyter" --<br /><br />Adding to the derailment:<br /><br /><i>This word (etymologically "elder", from presbyteros , presbyter ) has taken the meaning of "sacerdos", from which no substantive has been formed in various modern languages (English, French, German).<br /><br />This priesthood has two degrees: the first, total and complete, the second an incomplete participation of the first. The first belongs to the bishop. The second degree belongs to the priest ( presbyter ), who is also a sacerdos, but of the second rank; by his priestly ordination he receives the power to offer sacrifice (i.e. to celebrate the Eucharist), to forgive sins, to bless, to preach, to sanctify, and in a word to fulfil the non-reserved liturgical duties or priestly functions. In the exercise of these functions, however, he is subject to the authority of the bishop to whom he has promised canonical obedience; in certain cases even he requires not only authorization, but real jurisdiction, particularly to forgive sins and to take care of souls.</i><br /><br />ChristineAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-48841820021924006122012-02-14T13:35:54.997-06:002012-02-14T13:35:54.997-06:00Larry Luder, Chris, et al.,
Just as a congregatio...Larry Luder, Chris, et al.,<br /><br />Just as a congregation calls a man to be a parish pastor, so groupings of parishes can call a man to serve them all in a specialized capacity. Seminary professors would be a notable example, and if you want to carry the logic that only a parish pastor is legitimately called, you would then also need to argue that professors also are not serving in the office of the ministry. I doubt, though, that if Pr Weedon had been called to teach at a seminary we would be having this conversation.<br /><br />A large organization is certainly going to have bureaucratic language in its documentation, but then again, if you were to look at my responsibilities on paper (I'm one of several pastors at my church w/parochial school) and my congregation's policy document, your eyes would glaze over at the rules, definitions, and job descriptions.<br /><br />This particular position is not "cushy" - it wouldn't surprise me in the least if the benefits for Pr Weedon are greater in his parish. Unless one knows the facts of both positions's salary, benefits, etc., it is unseemly to speculate about which is more lucrative, and especially to assume that Pr Weedon will be unduly influenced by such things.<br /><br />Pr. Weedon simply needs to decide where he is best suited to serve the church. We should put the best construction on everyone's motives and pray that the Lord's will is done.Christopher Esgethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10440955337317194786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-20041854620132200982012-02-14T13:25:23.836-06:002012-02-14T13:25:23.836-06:00I haven't done the research to back this up, b...I haven't done the research to back this up, but a pastor once suggested to me this theory: that the English word "priest" is derived from "presbyter" (often wrongly translated "elder"). I find it a very intriguing theory.<br /><br />Just to derail this conversation further. ;)Christopher Esgethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10440955337317194786noreply@blogger.com