tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post5993838530013505891..comments2024-03-24T05:54:23.612-05:00Comments on Weedon's Blog: Something I Don't UnderstandWilliam Weedonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comBlogger82125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-75066468592042246452009-07-21T15:29:17.885-05:002009-07-21T15:29:17.885-05:00The name "Lutheran" also started as an i...The name "Lutheran" also started as an insult.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-27307505811562465852009-07-21T10:31:14.089-05:002009-07-21T10:31:14.089-05:00"liturgical pietist"..
I have been call..."liturgical pietist"..<br /><br />I have been called this. But I am in great company. :)Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08902545914497080245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-85104599530980776902009-07-21T08:10:47.839-05:002009-07-21T08:10:47.839-05:00OTOH, the Mass was offered for an intention, which...<i>OTOH, the Mass was offered for an intention, which may be printed in the bulletin. This means someone, usually with a few $$ too, requested the Mass to be "said" for this or that intention. Of course you could unofficially, as it were, go to Mass and offer it up for your own intention too.</i><br /><br />Hey, PE, in the novus ordo RC the Mass intentions ran around $10.00 (maybe more or less, depending on the diocese).<br /><br />But darn it if I didn't almost always miss the days that the "Mass Book" was opened to enroll the intentions!<br /><br />What's a working gal to do!<br /><br />ChristineAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-5439388216298426102009-07-21T06:40:58.273-05:002009-07-21T06:40:58.273-05:00This ongoing subject (not in your blog only, but i...This ongoing subject (not in your blog only, but in several others)is perplexing to me. I guess I'm a "liturgical pietist".. and I'm happy that way.<br /><br />I've heard it put this way:<br />Liturgy is adiaphora, as long as there is unity. But when there is no unity, there is no adiaphora. <br /><br />Well, there is no unity... so we should get back to basics, IMO.Xhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10566780826763385103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-46702351140151652662009-07-20T18:24:00.550-05:002009-07-20T18:24:00.550-05:00There is no Prayer of the Church in what I grew up...There is no Prayer of the Church in what I grew up with. No intercessions either, in the sense of someone or something specific to the time and place, like for a parishioner's recovery from illness etc. The sermon isn't even listed as you go through the Mass in my old missal, parenthetically in my dad's. There would be one on Sundays, maybe ten minutes or so, maybe or maybe not on weekdays.<br /><br />OTOH, the Mass was offered for an intention, which may be printed in the bulletin. This means someone, usually with a few $$ too, requested the Mass to be "said" for this or that intention. Of course you could unofficially, as it were, go to Mass and offer it up for your own intention too.<br /><br />Revisited an article by Dr Horn from The Lutheran Quarterly on "The Lutheran Origins of the Common Service". Was struck this time by 1) how concerns for adaptibility etc were very much considered and 2) how functionally except for a few places we now have neither a Common Service nor a common service.Past Elderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10541968132598367551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-51449543399441067522009-07-20T15:52:38.390-05:002009-07-20T15:52:38.390-05:00Basically, but that leaves the Verba free to stand...Basically, but that leaves the Verba free to stand in all their glory and the canon's intercessions were pretty comprehensive and so putting them back into the prayer of the Church (as inspired by the King John Red Book) made a great deal of sense to me.William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-931221147460352272009-07-20T15:43:38.033-05:002009-07-20T15:43:38.033-05:00Geez, pretty much the canon stuck in the end of th...Geez, pretty much the canon stuck in the end of the offertory so there won't be a canon.Past Elderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10541968132598367551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-73972546816853867062009-07-20T15:06:14.371-05:002009-07-20T15:06:14.371-05:00Father,
What we often use is something like this...Father, <br /><br />What we often use is something like this or a variant of it (called "the Remember Prayer" by one of my former vicars). In LSB 3, this would fall between the presentation of the gifts and the Sursum:<br /><br />We come to You, Holy Father, with praise and thanksgiving, through Jesus Christ, Your Son. Through Him we ask You to accept and bless the prayers and gifts we offer - for we offer You in thanksgiving only what You have first given to us in love. Lord, in Your mercy, R.<br /><br />Remember, Lord, Your holy church. Watch over her and guide her. Grant her peace and unity throughout the world. Lord, in Your mercy, R.<br /><br />Remember, Lord, our Synodical President, Gerald, our District President, Herbert, together with all pastors and servants of the Church. Grant them to hold and teach the faith that comes to us from the apostles. Lord, in Your mercy, R.<br /><br />Remember, Lord, our President, our public servants, and all in our armed forces. Guide, bless, protect and uphold them in honor. Bring all nations into the ways of peace and justice. Lord, in Your mercy, R.<br /><br />Remember us, Lord, in Your kindness and love, and grant us seasonable weather and an abundance of the fruits of the earth. Lord, in your mercy, R.<br /><br />Remember, Lord, all who suffer for Your name, all who are in prison, the hungry and ill-clad, the poor and the lonely, those who travel, and all who cry out to You in their time of need, especially: ... Lord, in your mercy, R. <br /><br />Remember all who are gathered here before You, our living and true God. We pray for our well-being and redemption. Order our days in your peace, deliver us from the danger of eternal death, and number us among Your chosen flock. Though we are sinners, we trust in Your mercy and love. Do not consider what we truly deserve, but grant us Your forgiveness. Lord, in Your mercy, R.<br /><br />Remember, Lord, N. and all our sisters and brothers who have fallen asleep in Christ our Savior. Refresh their souls with heavenly consolation and joy and fulfill for them all the gracious promises in Your Word which You have given to those who believe in You. Lord, in Your mercy, R.<br /><br />Holy Father, in communion with the whole Church we honor Your saints, in whom You have given us a mirror of Your mercy and grace. We praise You especially for the Blessed Virgin Mary, Saint Joseph her husband, St. John the Baptist, Saints Peter and Paul, and all Your martyrs. Give us grace to walk before you with faith like theirs, and in accordance with their prayers grant us a share in their heavenly fellowship. Lord, in Your mercy, R.<br /><br />Lord God, we pray You, bless and sanctify, with the power of Your Holy Spirit, this bread and wine, which you have given us, that through our Lord’s Words they may become His body and blood, the food and drink of eternal life. <br /><br />And grant us worthily to receive this sacramental mystery, the New Testament of our Divine Redeemer, for He is the Lamb of God, who gave Himself once and for all, as a holy, spotless and perfect sacrifice for the forgiveness of our sin and for the life and salvation of the whole world. <br /><br />Through Him, with Him and in Him, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, all glory and honor is Yours, Almighty Father, forever and ever.William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-45546910886283772952009-07-20T14:30:11.484-05:002009-07-20T14:30:11.484-05:00Pastor Weedon, you wrote:
"It does what I'...Pastor Weedon, you wrote:<br />"It does what I've become in the habit of doing: it front loads the canon into the intercessions - including the epiclesis!"<br /><br />In essence, I am gathering that you are saying that your use is to include the many intercessory prayers that were once a part of the Canon (not meaning the exact words of ye old Roman canon, but the notion of intercession that was present in it) and placing them in the General Prayer, and including an invocation of the Holy Spirit upon the gifts (and people?) during the General Prayer.<br /><br />If I am mistaken, please correct me.<br /><br />If I am not, how is that framed out in the Liturgy? When is the Offertory, Sursum Corda, etc., in relation to the General Prayer in your use?<br /><br />Rob+Bishop Robert Lyonshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10264379235175793061noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-7875321448230817242009-07-20T10:15:23.331-05:002009-07-20T10:15:23.331-05:00this is all fine in theological and other learned ...<i>this is all fine in theological and other learned circles, and when you're there, have at it, but otherwise, pick something and stick to it.</i><br /><br />There's wisdom in that. Having two calendars, two sets of readings, etc. just about guarantees that on any given Sunday LCMS Lutherans will never hear the same readings and sermons on those readings in all parishes.<br /><br />ChristineAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-31675645222200763922009-07-20T09:29:57.313-05:002009-07-20T09:29:57.313-05:00Well, Anonymous, this is one of the things that se...Well, Anonymous, this is one of the things that sends people to Rome or East.<br /><br />Who decides what is "decent", what is "in good order", who decides when is the time for change, and what changes are indicated? Who's in charge, how do we know they are in charge, and how do we know they will get it right?<br /><br />That's one thing about being a former academic, former elder, not a blackbird, and also a butt in the pew. Most of the butts in the pew aren't going to pore over rites used here and there over time or get excited at more scholarly works they can read on same.<br /><br />It carries a message when there's five or pick a number ways to do something, choices within each way, two sets of readings, two calendars, on and on, and the result doesn't seem all that much different than what happens in the church down the street with their new worship books too.<br /><br />And the message is -- well we're really all on the same page anyway, it doesn't make that much difference, we've all come a long way from a dark past, hey why can't we try this too, this is what people relate to now, on and on.<br /><br />And the exodus to Rome or the East is matched by an exodus to Willow Creek or the nearest "community" church -- which in some cases used to have OUR name on the door.<br /><br />Another reason to heed what this Augustinian renegade wrote in the preface to this little catechism he wrote -- this is all fine in theological and other learned circles, and when you're there, have at it, but otherwise, pick something and stick to it.<br /><br />Lex orandi lex credendi happens. The "liturgical movement" knew it, and were quite clear that a break with the traditional liturgy, and the preaching tradition associated with it, must happen. In this way, what is taught to some in class that faith and faith documents can be understood in various ways by various means is indirectly "taught" to all in church that there's no one way, but many valid ways and perhaps more we haven't thought of yet.<br /><br />Mix and match to suit.Past Elderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10541968132598367551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-3041958367133138952009-07-20T08:13:40.105-05:002009-07-20T08:13:40.105-05:00...confessional Lutheranism does *not* embrace the...<i>...confessional Lutheranism does *not* embrace the notion, as does Rome, that the specific form of the Divine Service, carries with it some kind of Divine mandate.<br /><br />Rites and ceremonies can, and very well may be, changed, at any time. There is no "best form" in the final analysis. To get hung up on such things, as some do, does not serve the Gospel.<br /><br />What confessional Lutheranism heartily embraces is the view that all things should be done decently and in good order...<br /><br />The historic Lutheran liturgical road is much broader than many would realize.</i><br /><br />I'd say it's pretty clear where the LCMS stands.<br /><br />So much for lex orandi est lex credendi in any sort of patristic sense. <br /><br />Of course, people are still allowed to play dress-up and mix and match according to aesthetic and/or intellectual predilection.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-21887995618234382932009-07-20T08:01:27.662-05:002009-07-20T08:01:27.662-05:00Thank you, sir! I'll have to get those once I...Thank you, sir! I'll have to get those once I'm situated on vicarage and have the necessary funds!Brian P Westgatehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15383132438753364755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-87567279208974040972009-07-19T23:27:52.647-05:002009-07-19T23:27:52.647-05:00Geez Swirlie, one of them is Polish-American from ...Geez Swirlie, one of them is Polish-American from Chicago, with a picture of JPII in the background. Nuttin compared to the Katarina Witt issue though, and she's Lutheran too (I think, but if not, here's to a critical event).<br /><br />Fred Reed? Maybe I'm Scuttlebutt, in which case, I'd better give myself that hotline to the pizza joint.<br /><br />We're breaking out Don Julio? What's he in for?Past Elderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10541968132598367551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-87955184957959494032009-07-19T22:28:29.901-05:002009-07-19T22:28:29.901-05:00For an English version of the Swedish stuff, get a...For an English version of the Swedish stuff, get a copy of Erik E. Yelverton's *The Mass in Sweden* (1919); it reprints the central portions of all the Swedish rites between 1529 and 1893. It was recently reprinted, and cheap-ish copies can be found on Abebooks.com, amazon.com and elsewhere, e.g.:<br /><br />http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?an=yelverton&bi=0&bx=off&ds=30&sortby=17&sts=t&tn=mass+in+sweden&x=41&y=9<br /><br />His other books, *The Swedish Rite* (1921), a translation of the 1917 Swedish Liturgy:<br /><br />http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?an=yelverton&bi=0&bx=off&ds=30&sortby=17&sts=t&tn=swedish+rite&x=53&y=10<br /><br />and *An Archbishop of the Reformation: Laurentius Petri Nericius, Archbishop of Uppsala 1531-1573, A Study of his Liturgical Projects* (1958):<br /><br />http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?an=yelverton&bi=0&bx=off&ds=30&sortby=17&sts=t&tn=archbishop&x=41&y=16<br /><br />are also of great interest.William Tighehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16634494183165592707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-19278531600576471992009-07-19T22:07:48.762-05:002009-07-19T22:07:48.762-05:00Bingo! Give that man a cigar.
Montecristo Cabinet...<i>Bingo! Give that man a cigar.</i><br /><br />Montecristo Cabinet de Cincuenta 748WM Cwirlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12317197804776939257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-76940557359749936882009-07-19T22:02:53.491-05:002009-07-19T22:02:53.491-05:00Yeah, same deal for the Playboys stashed somewhere...<i>Yeah, same deal for the Playboys stashed somewhere out in the garage, probably with the Documents of Vatican II and other pornography.</i><br /><br />Definitely a hint of Fred Reed curmudgeonly humor. I must admit, I like it! We'll have to break out the Don Julio the next time you touch down on the left coast.WM Cwirlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12317197804776939257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-37589095407286166352009-07-19T21:25:08.475-05:002009-07-19T21:25:08.475-05:00Though there are specific points within them that ...<i>Though there are specific points within them that would be worthy of debate, the eucharistic liturgies of the ELCA's ELW and WOV also fall within the broader pale of the Western form of the mass well known among Lutherans as well as LSB/HS98/LW/TLH.</i><br /><br />Lord have mercy! I keep the "faithful remnant" in the ELCA, The WordAlone Network, in my prayers. As for the rest of it, being a survivor of the ELCA and its increasing syncretism and unionism I must with all due respect vigorously differ!<br /><br />ChristineAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-17360864091163149682009-07-19T21:22:51.350-05:002009-07-19T21:22:51.350-05:00And if The Bride of Christ ever publishes again, m...And if The Bride of Christ ever publishes again, might make a good spot for this stuff.Brian P Westgatehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15383132438753364755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-80457836560219623352009-07-19T21:22:19.382-05:002009-07-19T21:22:19.382-05:00I have Edition 1 of Reed. Should get Edition 2 so...I have Edition 1 of Reed. Should get Edition 2 someday. But it tends to be expensive. Can't remember if that was in both editions.Brian P Westgatehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15383132438753364755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-1214731949157096802009-07-19T21:20:05.892-05:002009-07-19T21:20:05.892-05:00If you have Reed, Brian, you have some of the most...If you have Reed, Brian, you have some of the most interesting Swedish stuff - the Red Book of John III. Evanson sent me a xerox of his copy of that. Sweet! It does what I've become in the habit of doing: it front loads the canon into the intercessions - including the epiclesis!William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-56453210329525142762009-07-19T21:17:47.422-05:002009-07-19T21:17:47.422-05:00I'd love to see that Swedish stuff in English....I'd love to see that Swedish stuff in English. Maybe as an appendix to something by Bishop Giertz.Brian P Westgatehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15383132438753364755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-10935954740222948382009-07-19T21:16:20.450-05:002009-07-19T21:16:20.450-05:00Back to the subject, there's a lot of ELCA inf...Back to the subject, there's a lot of ELCA influence in the congregations I serve, and this has influenced the thinking. So, to more clearly draw the lines between the two groups, I abstain from using DSI and II. If the ELCA would significantly change and stop using these services, I would be somewhat open to using them, but it's most certainly not my first choice.Rev. Karl Gregoryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02041575875118755236noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-56821828209872119672009-07-19T21:16:19.264-05:002009-07-19T21:16:19.264-05:00Watch over it and guide it.
Arggghhh. One of my ...<i>Watch over it and guide it.</i><br /><br />Arggghhh. One of my biggest peeves with the Roman novus ordo --referring to the church as "it" rather than "her." This is supposedly being restored by Rome in the new missal translation -- if the bishops can ever stop arguing about whether or not the laity are capable of understanding the revisions.<br /><br />ChristineAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-67120726222858633322009-07-19T21:09:33.382-05:002009-07-19T21:09:33.382-05:00The other thing that struck me in those days was t...The other thing that struck me in those days was the Lutheran version of the St John Chrysostom liturgy used by the Ukrainian Lutherans, to which my blog has always linked and I think you have linked to it in a post or two as well.<br /><br />Now that's the real deal Eastern Style, no Options A,B,or C, no "settings" 1,2,buckle my shoe, no here's the readings unless those are the readings, no this is the calendar but this is the calendar too.<br /><br />Nor did the Common Service, when it was written, do such nonsense either. Nobody did until the last century, which is more my point that the particulars.<br /><br />They are actually in KELK (oder CELC) as is WELS.Past Elderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10541968132598367551noreply@blogger.com