tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post6613186466899630183..comments2024-03-24T05:54:23.612-05:00Comments on Weedon's Blog: Thoughts on a Compline PrayerWilliam Weedonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comBlogger187125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-70942918608726585122021-10-25T15:24:57.713-05:002021-10-25T15:24:57.713-05:00Hi Pr. Weedon, as an ex-Orthodox reader I took the...Hi Pr. Weedon, as an ex-Orthodox reader I took the liberty to change the Orthodox daily prayers that I was used to and cut out and added to them what is according to Holy Scripture. I know that our Eastern Orthodox friends will not take kindly to that as the comments show. But I think it is quite legitimate to take from any Christian tradition as all can express a true and rich devotion that as long as it is conforms to the God breathed Scriptures all is well. I have no qualms changing those parts that don't so that they do. Sempre reformando or something like that?<br />God bless you Pastor W!<br />SimonSimonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03747055173789847596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-67597645735037147092009-08-19T06:21:34.488-05:002009-08-19T06:21:34.488-05:00Weedon,
after reading so many Fathers, and You s...Weedon, <br /><br />after reading so many Fathers, and You still don't know that the difference between us and God lies NOT in what we DO [energies], BUT in what we ARE [essence] ? The energies are for all to share in: otherwise, since God is love, no-one would be (according to Your logic) permitted to love. -- which would make me a <a href="http://mystificator.blogspot.com/2009/06/personal-passover.html" rel="nofollow">blasphemer</a>, perhaps. Haven't You read the Fathers saying that men become like God (or 'gods') according to grace, but not according to nature. Or that God became man so that men might become gods, or like God?The Blogger Formerly Known As Lvkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09663692507774640889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-53255892729949721482009-08-11T15:20:21.165-05:002009-08-11T15:20:21.165-05:00Christine, you can correct my spelling anytime :)
...Christine, you can correct my spelling anytime :)<br /><br />I'm so embarrassed that I typed it wrong not once but twice! :) Believe it or not, I actually do know how to spell it...Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00463464834576379106noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-83586251084970865002009-08-11T14:40:24.165-05:002009-08-11T14:40:24.165-05:00It was Lutherans that came up with "sitz em l...<i>It was Lutherans that came up with "sitz em leben," no?</i><br /><br />Forgive me, please. I'm a Virgo, I can't help it -- Pastor Weedon is fully aware of my annoying tendency to correct the world.<br /><br />Actually, Lutherans didn't come up with "sitz em leben" -- "Sitz im Leben", perhaps?<br /><br />ChristineAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-75432333012818286212009-08-11T14:14:12.904-05:002009-08-11T14:14:12.904-05:00It was Lutherans that came up with "sitz em l...It was Lutherans that came up with "sitz em leben," no? I hardly think that Chrysostom's sitz em leben is using the scriptures as a reforming element for everything in the Church. His point that the scriptures are simply and truly "on our side" (as seen in "No doubt: this is in our favor.") in the Christological controversies of his day.<br /><br />Regarding the quote from "The Living God": that is quite a late interpretation. I'm not sure that is how the early church viewed its liturgy. The Sursum Corda is fairly clear that it is ourselves that we are offering (though this not exclude the Holy Scriptures as well).Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00463464834576379106noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-53397970158912780512009-08-11T13:58:34.567-05:002009-08-11T13:58:34.567-05:00And which then raises the question of whether the ...And which then raises the question of whether the prayer as originally given in Compline is such a praying back of Scripture? Certainly the humility of the petitioner is Scriptural.William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-63978929977119210852009-08-11T13:56:46.300-05:002009-08-11T13:56:46.300-05:00Well, it IS my discussion! ;)
Seriously, thoug...Well, it IS my discussion! ;) <br /><br />Seriously, though, the reason for citing from The Living God was because I do think that the permanent element in the Church's lex orandi is precisely the Sacred Scriptures which she sings and prays back to God in great joy - though across the centuries in a multiplicity of forms.William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-54111552177643273982009-08-11T13:54:55.585-05:002009-08-11T13:54:55.585-05:00I think the impression that some have given here o...I think the impression that some have given here of Lex ordandi (and I may be misreading them?), is that it is and has been unchangeable.<br /><br />About Chrysostom, he's arguing that the Scriptures are both simple and true and that one who desires to know the truth can weigh any truth claims against their lucid guidance and by seeing how those claims stack up against the Scriptures know if they are true or not. In this he is entirely of a piece with numerous of the early fathers who repeatedly sought to ground all their teaching in the words of the divinely-inspired Scriptures and urged their hearers to evaluate all that they said by that same standard.William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-88310530809311605502009-08-11T13:50:43.672-05:002009-08-11T13:50:43.672-05:00It also seems to me that your quote from "The...It also seems to me that your quote from "The Living God" is entirely unrelated to our discussion.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00463464834576379106noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-34145308115621409732009-08-11T13:47:15.751-05:002009-08-11T13:47:15.751-05:00William,
I'm not sure who was arguing that le...William,<br /><br />I'm not sure who was arguing that lex orandi was unchangable... I'm not really sure why you are bringing this up at this point.<br /><br />Regarding your Chrysostom quote, the issues of his day are not the issues of our day. Chrysostom is not arguing that we systematically reform the Church with the scriptures. He is arguing that there is a clear case in the scriptures for the Orthodox Christology.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00463464834576379106noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-59867734995811506862009-08-11T13:36:26.109-05:002009-08-11T13:36:26.109-05:00P.S. On the Church's lex orandi, I also think...P.S. On the Church's lex orandi, I also think *The LIving God* was quite correct when it noted:<br /><br />The pettiness and sins of the Christian people <br />pass away in the course of history, but the Word of God remains and never ceases to be heard in the sermons and the church services. The Word of God is the permanent element in the life of the Church, defining its form and directing its development, despite the mediocrity of its members. God Himself expresses this idea through the mouth of the prophet Isaiah (Isaiah 55:10-11 is cited). (p. 265)William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-59802295570543671022009-08-11T11:52:26.898-05:002009-08-11T11:52:26.898-05:00But the lex orandi is not quite the fixed and unch...But the lex orandi is not quite the fixed and unchanging thing that folks tend to make it out to be; Schmemann is helpful:<br /><br />Liturgical life has developed, it has changed its forms. It would not be difficult to show that it is changing still. The absence of development would be a sign of a fatal sclerosis. (Liturgical Theology, p. 20)<br /><br />He also cites Archbishop Filaret: "As a result of historical research it is clear and beyond doubt that the holy Church has acted with reasonable freedom in regard to the ceremonies of worship. She has adopted new orders of services for their beneficial effect upon people, and has replaced these by others when she saw that they were not altogether helpful or necessary. A theory of worship in the Church which does not rest on historical data is false, and is also harmful in its consequences." (p. 21)William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-89465906480287896752009-08-11T11:42:20.835-05:002009-08-11T11:42:20.835-05:00Looking back into history is like "looking th...Looking back into history is like "looking through a glass darkly" (to borrow from St Paul). We can see a few important features, but mostly we see our own reflection...<br /><br />This is especially true with liturgics, since most ancient writers simply take liturgics as a given knowledge. However, this is also why I would consider the inclusion of such a prayer into a liturgy to be something authoritative. Especially since the lex orandi is such a central argument for writers in this period against heresies, such as Irenaeus. In fact, one could make an argument that Irenaeus' mariology comes from the lex orandi of his time. Though, of course here is not the proper place to make such arguments.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00463464834576379106noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-57953376740375922272009-08-11T11:38:27.147-05:002009-08-11T11:38:27.147-05:00Chrysostom at least thought the answer was obvious...Chrysostom at least thought the answer was obvious, but it doesn't follow that those who disagree are stupid or evil:<br /><br />There comes a heathen and says, "I wish to become a Christian, but I know not whom to join: there is much fighting and faction among you, much confusion: which doctrine am I to choose?" How shall we answer him? "Each of you" (says he) "asserts, 'I speak the truth.'" No doubt: this is in our favor. For if we told you to be persuaded by arguments, you might well be perplexed: but if we bid you believe the Scriptures, and these are simple and true, the decision is easy for you. If any agree with the Scriptures, he is the Christian; if any fight against them, he is far from this rule. -- St. John Chrysostom, (Homily 33 in Acts of the Apostles [NPNF1,11:210-11; PG 60.243-44])William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-55846404929599981922009-08-11T11:16:47.123-05:002009-08-11T11:16:47.123-05:00It's a worthwhile endeavor for all who claim t...<i>It's a worthwhile endeavor for all who claim to speak for the Church.</i><br /><br />An endeavor whose success is not always directly related to one's intentions or the love one has of Scripture, the faith and/or Christ. I think we could all multiply examples ancient and modern of such endeavors crossing into heresy. Of course, 'they' could simply be stupid or evil since the right answer is SO obvious.123https://www.blogger.com/profile/14514075641944568806noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-85161287260805775792009-08-11T11:12:33.400-05:002009-08-11T11:12:33.400-05:00Florovsky's piece describes the Kerygma/Dogma ...Florovsky's piece describes the Kerygma/Dogma in a fashion rather different than the more modern (mis)uses mentioned.123https://www.blogger.com/profile/14514075641944568806noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-33956826674174985072009-08-11T10:00:42.197-05:002009-08-11T10:00:42.197-05:00Judas Christine, I heard that in the RCC after the...<i>Judas Christine, I heard that in the RCC after the Revolution -- </i><br /><br />Sheesh, if I had only known!! They could have ordered some of those Episcopal feminist bumper stickers at the Abtei!<br /><br /><br />ChristineAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-73572863990161192892009-08-10T20:18:43.746-05:002009-08-10T20:18:43.746-05:00Judas Christine, I heard that in the RCC after the...Judas Christine, I heard that in the RCC after the Revolution -- you know, once we shed all this repressive, oppressive, suppressive and depressive dogma churches come up with and get back to the kerygma and understand we are all one, just separated by all that dreck that we are now either shedding or reworking back to the proverbial early church!Past Elderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10541968132598367551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-2240507131366655022009-08-10T19:14:35.578-05:002009-08-10T19:14:35.578-05:00Whoeeee, that became a rallying cry for feminists ...Whoeeee, that became a rallying cry for feminists in the Episcopal Church --<br /><br />CURB YOUR DOGMA !!<br /><br />Yikes!<br /><br /><br />ChristineAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-48248714500193907842009-08-10T18:20:00.687-05:002009-08-10T18:20:00.687-05:00Terry,
The Russians are always a little behind th...Terry,<br /><br />The Russians are always a little behind the times... ;)William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-62427062290623760872009-08-10T18:10:05.281-05:002009-08-10T18:10:05.281-05:00Holy Moly. I haven't heard Kerygma/Dogma dist...Holy Moly. I haven't heard Kerygma/Dogma distinctions since the last day of Historical Jesus and Christ of Faith class -- in which class one would have though dogma is what happens when the church messes around with the kerygma what we are now getting back to after all this dogma that has divided us for so long.Past Elderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10541968132598367551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-37788564148134053792009-08-10T16:55:02.032-05:002009-08-10T16:55:02.032-05:00Christopher,
The point with St. Jerome is that he...Christopher,<br /><br />The point with St. Jerome is that he claims to present what is the teaching of the Apostles as witnessed from their writings. It's a worthwhile endeavor for all who claim to speak for the Church.William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-13269524534860625732009-08-10T16:48:41.911-05:002009-08-10T16:48:41.911-05:00'The only difference between dogma (δογμα) and...'The only difference between dogma (δογμα) and kirigma (κηρυγμα) was in the manner of their transmission: dogma is kept "in silence" and kerygmata are "publicized".' (Fr. Georges Florovsky, 'The Function of Tradition in the Ancient Church')<br /><br />The doctrines concerning the Mother of God were examples of dogma. They were revealed 'in mysteries', in the sacraments, of which the sub tuum praesidium is a surviving example - as is the consensus of all the ancient liturgies.<br /><br />The consensus of the Church is pretty clear on the place of Mary and requests to her for her assistance - unless one believes in some form of a <i>DaVinci Code</i> theory of early, mass apostasy (or, least indelible taint) across the vast expanses and boundaries of Christendom from the true faith. It's OK to believe that, it's just that it is what it is.<br /><br />Of course, if this is cherry picking, then so is referring St. Jerome for patristic verification of one's doctrine of Holy Orders. Then again, the consensus of the Church is pretty clear on that, too.123https://www.blogger.com/profile/14514075641944568806noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-58681483868085518942009-08-10T14:15:27.183-05:002009-08-10T14:15:27.183-05:00It was funnier than hell to see all the Catholics ...It was funnier than hell to see all the Catholics backpedalling from the Mary stuff like crazy and the Protestants "rediscovering" an "authentic" Marian devotion after Vatican II.<br /><br />In my home parish, the former side altar dedicated to Mary ended up being the "altar of repose" for the Eucharist.<br /><br />Notes: we were taught up till the Council our churches visibly showed the living presence of Christ, with the tabernacle on the main altar as the focus, and a side altar dedicated to the Mary on one side and Joseph on the other reflecting the Holy Family.<br /><br />Suddenly that was all wrong, the church is the assembly place of the People of God, the tabernacle removed to another location, and all that mediaeval piety stuff removed.<br /><br />It's quite true that a Catholic is not required to buy all the Mary stuff, but in practice, with it all around, if you don't it would be one of those things you don't pay much attention to and shut up about. There are lots of such things.<br /><br />Honouring her as Christ honoured her is one thing, turning her into a Christianised Mother Goddess is something else.<br /><br />Lex orandi is fine, when it's not whatever who's in charge says it is.Past Elderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10541968132598367551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-39542608343510739082009-08-10T11:43:40.254-05:002009-08-10T11:43:40.254-05:00But, of course, we also have EXTENSIVE writings fr...But, of course, we also have EXTENSIVE writings from numerous of the Fathers and I do not think it is unreasonable to see, say, St. John Chrysostom, mention something along these lines were it a part of the Lex Crendendi that he were familiar with?William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.com