tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post8395454686397874054..comments2024-03-24T05:54:23.612-05:00Comments on Weedon's Blog: On Lectors and SuchWilliam Weedonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comBlogger71125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-34061307837124511642020-07-13T22:17:04.389-05:002020-07-13T22:17:04.389-05:00Thank you!Thank you!Egger1989https://www.blogger.com/profile/17839121594726035397noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-58896218491080708662010-03-05T15:37:47.632-06:002010-03-05T15:37:47.632-06:00I realize I am jumping in on this discussion way p...I realize I am jumping in on this discussion way past its life but if anyone is interested in commenting on the relationship between the readings and the sermon, I think that might help give context. The readings serve a particular purpose within the liturgy and perhaps it would help shed some light on this pertinent question. <br /><br />While there is certainly a distinction between the Scriptures and the sermon, I have often thought that a pastor who has carefully studied the Scriptures and as carefully prepared his sermon, ought at the end of the sermon be able to say, "This is the Word of the Lord"? Are not Paul's letter essentially sermons themselves? <br /><br />If this intimate of a link exists between the Scriptures and the sermon, perhaps it would be best if the one who is a called and ordained servant of the Word publicly read the Word of the Lord.Kurt Ulmerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17942749199292530389noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-41007364770951295542010-02-26T11:10:07.794-06:002010-02-26T11:10:07.794-06:00CPH will be issuing a small pamphlet/booklet speci...CPH will be issuing a small pamphlet/booklet specifically intended to help train lectors. The LSB lectionary books contain "sense lines" and pronunciation keys/guides specifically to assist lectors do their jobs well, the resource we are working on will further help.<br /><br />Nothing is more dreadful than Scriptures poorly read, no matter who is doing it.Rev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-59882325252697082162010-02-26T07:35:13.199-06:002010-02-26T07:35:13.199-06:00Pastor Weedon
I appreciate your boldness in even ...Pastor Weedon<br /><br />I appreciate your boldness in even bringing this subject up. Many people could easily question your confessional status based upon the question.<br /><br />I see it in a very simple, practical sense. I can read, many lay people need to be teaching, encouraging, and serving one another with A TON of tough stuff, why not just read.<br /><br />We have a vicar at our church and a pre-sem student, so I have them read from time to time. However, there is so much diaconal stuff to do, this issue is very low on the pole in the whole spectrum.Pastor Finnernhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12071077309359460750noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-3337530859508980802010-02-26T07:17:15.320-06:002010-02-26T07:17:15.320-06:00Is there a significant difference a "choir&qu...Is there a significant difference a <b>"choir"</b> or <b>"deacon"</b> - where you have specific, clearly defined people who have been designated a task, and a situation where you have (seemingly) random people come up to read? <br /><br />I would posit that there is - not in terms of "legality" but in terms of what the practice says. If the choir sings - if the deacon reads - if the Elder of the Day assists - if those 3 lectors get cycled through - there is order. If it is just a matter of "well, I wonder who is going to head on up there today" that seems to be less orderly. Any thoughts from anyone else?Rev. Eric J Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17747919365522145094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-32844727775592627652010-02-26T03:39:12.500-06:002010-02-26T03:39:12.500-06:00To emphasise what I wrote earlier:
@Weedon:
"...To emphasise what I wrote earlier:<br /><br />@Weedon:<br />"then the <b><i>lector</i></b> sings the Epistle in Latin, then a <b><i>choir member</i></b> reads the same in German. Then two boys <b><i>from the choir</i></b> sing the alleluia and the choir sings the versicle and sequence, prose or tract. Then the <b><i>lector</i></b> sings the Gospel in Latin, and a <b><i>choir member</i></b> reads it to the people in German using the usual melody"<br /><br />@Weedon:<br />"Then Epistle in Latin, followed by a <b><i>choir</i></b> member reading it in German...Then the Gospel in Latin and German, as above."<br /><br />And Halberstadt, 1591:<br /><br />"Then the <b><i>deacon or subdeacon</i></b> reads or sings the Epistle, then a <b><i>choir member</i></b> reads the German Epistle.... When the organ has played the last verse the <b><i>deacon</i></b> sings the Gospel in Latin, after which a <b><i>choir</i></b> member reads it in German."<br /><br />@Anon<br />"Pastor Weedon might like to know that the <b><i>Kreuzchor</i></b> at Dresden still performs <b><i>its liturgical functions</i></b> during the services."<br /><br />Hmmm... What's the theme?Tapani Simojokihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16554859269922495896noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-73486811779699335482010-02-26T01:26:33.008-06:002010-02-26T01:26:33.008-06:00Pastor Weedon might like to know that the Kreuzcho...Pastor Weedon might like to know that the Kreuzchor at Dresden still performs it's liturgical functions during the services. One of the functions is to chant the gospel reading. I've only caught snippits of them in action on YouTube. I've seen vested choir boys, 3 or 4, process to the pulpit. One enters the pulpit and chants the gospel.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-20244609685839719742010-02-25T21:03:29.750-06:002010-02-25T21:03:29.750-06:00I like bacon.I like bacon.Rev. Charles Lehmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09089242798450053313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-81531748245324985992010-02-25T14:02:37.404-06:002010-02-25T14:02:37.404-06:00Paul, you posted - "Are wives and daughters l...Paul, you posted - "Are wives and daughters likewise forbidden to read the Scripture at the family table? Not where I live."<br /><br />If you see no differance between the words "public" and "private" and consider a public Divine Service equal to a private family devotion, I think that I am very glad you are not my pastor.<br /><br />Matt H.BalaamsAss51https://www.blogger.com/profile/04427791905802091592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-14160617713587679982010-02-25T13:42:04.731-06:002010-02-25T13:42:04.731-06:00Rev. Frahm's article is a great read!
-GaryRev. Frahm's article is a great read!<br /><br />-GaryAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-91767710311544804722010-02-25T13:20:36.751-06:002010-02-25T13:20:36.751-06:00Very interesting to read.
I really have no stro...Very interesting to read. <br /><br />I really have no strong feelings either way (so why am I commenting, right?) I've inherited the practice at each church I've served.<br /><br />The one thing that we try to do is have instruction in how to read. Some of our lectors take their role seriously, others less so. I do ask for them to practice, to make us of the Lectionary with the wonderful helps provided. <br /><br />I do not mind doing the reading when a lector is sick or has to be away for an emergency. And I do not mind having lectors. But if there were no lectors at a congregation, I wouldn't be bothered.<br /><br />JeremyJeremy Loeschnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-52951064775503408842010-02-25T11:50:19.477-06:002010-02-25T11:50:19.477-06:00Deacon Gaba,
You're just too negative. Shees...Deacon Gaba,<br /><br />You're just too negative. Sheesh.<br /><br />Have a nice day.Rev. John Frahmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11937327450254152002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-77019870224885887102010-02-25T11:00:42.963-06:002010-02-25T11:00:42.963-06:00Fr. Frahm:
In fact, in certain quarters of the Mi...Fr. Frahm:<br /><br />In fact, in certain quarters of the Missouri Synod, we already do see women with the titles and the outward forms, such as deacon's stoles, albs, etc. There are deaconesses who are serving as veritable female deacons. (Unfortunately, we also have "deacons" who are not deacons, but are doing things that not even deacons should do, running parishes, and pretending to celebrate the Sacrament, etc. So we have a lot of sorting out to do in an age where we are supposedly doing too much internal purifying._Dcn Latif Haki Gaba SSPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13032212390625343868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-83092221774736684412010-02-25T09:37:10.754-06:002010-02-25T09:37:10.754-06:00Ecclesiologically we need to consider that the chu...Ecclesiologically we need to consider that the church is not the Bride of Christ talking to herself. The practice I've seen of the entire congregation reading the lections in unison is strange at least. <br /><br />There is a difference between the liturgical context and a Bible study or private devotions in the home. <br /><br />There is also the point that the apostolic prohibitions regarding gender speak to the functions, not just the titles or offices. The LCMS is opening itself up for real problems here because we think we're safe by not having the titles or office given to women (or collars, stoles, etc - adiaphora) even though Scripture is addressing chiefly the verbs. The verbs, the tasks follow from the vocation, the order of creation, office. Doing comes from being.Rev. John Frahmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11937327450254152002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-6315883913811461712010-02-25T09:30:30.101-06:002010-02-25T09:30:30.101-06:00Here are my thoughts on the matter:
Give Attenti...Here are my thoughts on the matter:<br /><br /><br />Give Attention to the Public Reading of Scripture: I Timothy 4:13: Lectors, Pastoral Stewardship, and Gender Considerations<br />Rev. John A. Frahm III<br />http://www.reformationtoday.net/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/frahmgiveattentiontoreading.pdf<br /><br /><br />There are some other items here:<br />http://www.reformationtoday.net/id7.htmlRev. John Frahmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11937327450254152002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-13061448666000743932010-02-25T08:39:22.071-06:002010-02-25T08:39:22.071-06:00For the record, I agree with Fr. Peters. Rejoice ...For the record, I agree with Fr. Peters. Rejoice whenever the Word of God is proclaimed with clarity and reverence. Are wives and daughters likewise forbidden to read the Scripture at the family table? Not where I live.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09350908137437557142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-2184445456694335292010-02-24T21:20:04.627-06:002010-02-24T21:20:04.627-06:00Thanks for your kind instruction, Rev. Brown.
T...Thanks for your kind instruction, Rev. Brown. <br /><br />This discussion has certainly encouraged me dig into Walther's Church & Ministry, which I just received the other day! Thanks all for the interesting comments.<br /><br />-Gary<br /><br />P.S. This might make a good Issues, etc. topic, eh? ;-)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-21617703802570664972010-02-24T21:10:35.691-06:002010-02-24T21:10:35.691-06:00Gary - a pastor has no right to order you to read....Gary - a pastor has no right to order you to read. . . he could ask, but you could refuse if conscience (or convenience) so demanded.<br /><br />It isn't so much that the pastor can "assign" the duties as though a person is bound to them (only the pastor is bound, he is the one who is ordained, is put under orders to be in the ministry). It's like a deputy - you can't be forcefully deputized legally.Rev. Eric J Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17747919365522145094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-20159465428603008822010-02-24T21:07:00.520-06:002010-02-24T21:07:00.520-06:00Gary,
There has long been the idea that the Bisho...Gary,<br /><br />There has long been the idea that the Bishop, the overseer, the head pastor, can delegate work to the presbyters and the also the deacons - that's sort of how the three-fold office standard in many parts of the world.<br /><br />I'd probably swing a bit more wildly on this than most -- as Ignatius of Antioch points out (and Pastor Curtis already starts to cringe) the only safe Eucharist is that of the Bishop or the one whom the Bishop designates. That is from around 110 AD, and I think it makes good sense in theory (although I think it would be horribly abused and so shouldn't be used). So while I can intellectually conceive a Pastor having the ability to delegate part of his authority, practically speaking I think it is bad.<br /><br />Hence my thoughts here - I think a pastor can delegate the responsibility of readings. . . but let it be done not lightly or for casual reasons. I as a pastor have even delegated preaching - the son of the congregation in the Seminary has preached under my supervision for his edification as well as the edification of the people. But that's as far as I think we could safely push it in our set up as we know it.<br /><br />Our order and organization effects what we can do. I don't have "deacons" who are considered clergy here. If I did, I might be comfortable delegating more -- but again, why am I delegating? For whose benefit? If the task is given to me, I should be the one to do it.Rev. Eric J Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17747919365522145094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-25391836362028635022010-02-24T18:47:16.663-06:002010-02-24T18:47:16.663-06:00If I may use that most ancient of academic express...If I may use that most ancient of academic expressions, right up there with gaudeamus igitur -- Rock on, Curate Simojoki!! (I'm quite happy to use the nomenclature of my ancestors.)<br /><br />Having been on both sides of the aisle, so to speak, I would also like to point out that the presence of Protestant scholarship in the work of the "liturgical movement" is as poorly understood, and not just in one way, on the RCC side as the Lutheran side.<br /><br />And too, rock on Pastor Brown. I think the distinction is, reading the readings is not so much a matter of a pastor's direct duty that he may or may not delegate, but something within his pastoral oversight which he may or may not do himself but remains a matter of his oversight.<br /><br />How a usage is taken culturally, aa opposed to intended, is a very difficult matter. In my previous synod, women could not serve as even ushers for that reason, that it would seem a role of some authority and if that role then why not this other role.<br /><br />And indeed, nobody has a "right" to anything in the church, and I think in the broadest of strokes one could say we are morphing from the ill effects of styling church governance after a monarchial or imperial model to the ill effects of styling it after democracy, in both losing the importance that Scripture likens the church not to this or that political body of man's invention but the human body of God's creation.<br /><br />Wherein the foot is no less a part of the body for being a foot instead of a hand, but the body suffers if the foot spends its time going on and on about being denied its supposed right to be a hand and doesn't just be a foot.Past Elderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10541968132598367551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-57405273073800428032010-02-24T15:53:36.185-06:002010-02-24T15:53:36.185-06:00Point 1 should have referred to the commentary on ...Point 1 should have referred to the commentary on Acts 6:2-6, not Acts 6:26.<br /><br />A new question popped into my head: does a pastor have the authority to assign his duties to a lay-member? In author words, if a pastor were to assign me to serve as a lector, and I refused, would I be breaking the 4th Commandment?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-28592683204964560862010-02-24T15:48:46.983-06:002010-02-24T15:48:46.983-06:00Rev. Brown, thanks for suggesting that I take a be...Rev. Brown, thanks for suggesting that I take a better approach. I see your point and agree.<br /><br />I was reading my TLSB, and came across the following points:<br /><br />1. The commentary on Acts 6:26 quotes Luther: "The diaconate is the ministry, not of reading the Gospel or the Epistle, as is the present practice, but of distributing the church's aid to the poor" (AE 36:116). Thoughts?<br /><br />2. The note on Acts 6:3 emphasizes "The people choose the deacons; the apostles instituted their office."<br /><br />I see this idea as opposed to the idea mentioned often here that the pastor can delegate his duties. A previous poster mentioned how his conscience had been torn when he had been a lector but then felt that he had violated his calling in the Divine service. What do you think of the idea of the congregation calling someone to serve as lector, with the pastor "laying on hands" to confirm the call? I personally think I would be willing to serve as lector if this were done, whereas I (currently) would be reluctant to serve as a lector appointed by the pastor.<br /><br />-GaryAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-31697919641270236072010-02-24T15:16:48.212-06:002010-02-24T15:16:48.212-06:00Pr. Weedon,
No doubt your scholarship is better t...Pr. Weedon,<br /><br />No doubt your scholarship is better than mine. But I do think my point remains. What you describe is the Protestant outworking of the same principle as that enunciated in Vatican II.<br /><br />And it also remains the case that much of the agenda (though not all) was set by RC scholars with RC concerns. These got translated into various vernacular forms, such as the Anglican 'Parish & People' movement.<br /><br />Either way, it ain't Lutheran.<br /><br />Two other things:<br /><br />(1) The original question concerned 'lectors'. The discussion here is yo-yoing between 'lectors' and 'laity'. While lectors are lay, not all laity are necessarily lectors. I think the discussion would look very different if we stuck to the original question in a precise manner.<br /><br />(2) I'm not a pastor, but a curate, which is 'vicar' in LC-MS speak. God willing, I will be ordained soon.Tapani Simojokihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16554859269922495896noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-37554762436978355662010-02-24T14:30:07.146-06:002010-02-24T14:30:07.146-06:00Gary wrote: "I don't see how one can deny...Gary wrote: "I don't see how one can deny women lectors if they allow layman to read."<br /><br />Consider the word "deny" here - deny implies a keeping of one from a right. I should have X, but it was denied me. No one, though, has a right to read Scripture. The Pastor has to duty to see that the services are conducted in order, and one could argue that he may, if he so deems, ask or appoint others to read. This needs to be something that flows from the oversight of the pastor. . . not that he just denies or allows (if you want to read, go ahead), but that rather this service of reading is delegated by and from the Pastor to one under his oversight.<br /><br />So first, I'd say that your angle of approach is slightly off (although it is how we as Americans tend towards thinking - we didn't add a table of duties to the Constitution, we added a Bill of Rights). As a Pastor I neither allow or deny lay readers -- I may ask for assistance.<br /><br />As for the idea of women readers -- with the prohibitions against women teaching or excerising authority (i.e. the Pastoral Office), I would be highly hesitant to ask a woman to assist me in this way. This is something more so because of the fact that we live in a country where the idea of any sort of gender role or even vocational role is out of wack.<br /><br />In a vaccuum, there should be no confusion of office or vocation if a pastor were to delegate the reading to a woman -- but we don't live in a vaccuum, and the cultural baggage may imply otherwise. When we see someone doing something we often ask, "Well, why can't they do this other thing as well" instead of asking "what ought I be doing". As long as we are thinking in terms of rights and what I can do instead of what is given to me to do, I'm in favor of having the Pastor do as much reading as possible.Rev. Eric J Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17747919365522145094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-89284528209575433872010-02-24T14:07:25.657-06:002010-02-24T14:07:25.657-06:00I do not read Paul telling Timothy "No more a...I do not read Paul telling Timothy "No more aliyah, boychick, start doing all that yourself".Past Elderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10541968132598367551noreply@blogger.com