tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post113467044271160228..comments2024-03-24T05:54:23.612-05:00Comments on Weedon's Blog: Thoughts during Matins...William Weedonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comBlogger28125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-1135136423968477822005-12-20T21:40:00.000-06:002005-12-20T21:40:00.000-06:00Hello Pastor Weedon,I was singing Matins in church...Hello Pastor Weedon,<BR/>I was singing Matins in church when suddenly it all came together for me. I realized the propitiatory sacrifice of Jesus and how the deal fits together. You think because it is uneven it is not a deal but the price does not determine the deal it is just a function of it. I also understood the submission aspect of salvation. I live completely on faith not knowing where I will live next month or what I will do for work. Where he wants me to go I will go and what he wants me to do I will do. God keeps sending me into Moslem Countries on Missionary trips and he always brings me out safely. It dives my poor wife to distraction. Of course it is not always easy, God gave me a jaguar xj8 so that I can know what it is to suffer. <BR/>Yes God in the second person fulfilled the covenant. So I see this as a missive to emulate Christ rather than a legalist requirement. <BR/>The rich young ruler would have had to keep the law to do what Jesus did. I cannot do what Jesus did but fortunately I do not have too. I am not bound by the 10 commandments as such since they are the old law that has passed away. I am bound by 2 commandments that happens to cover 9 out of 10 of the 10. The 10th is the Saturday Sabbath. If I am to love God and my neighbor I need to set aside time for God without being legalistic about Saturday. So when the rich young ruler asked "what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?" he presupposed that he could earn it. To earn it he would have had to be the Christ. <BR/>Best wishes,<BR/>Barry O'ConnellAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-1135125674391791112005-12-20T18:41:00.000-06:002005-12-20T18:41:00.000-06:00Barry, Trust me, this boy is NOT brilliant! Not e...Barry, <BR/><BR/>Trust me, this boy is NOT brilliant! Not even remotely bright. Just blessed by God with a good memory; nothing more. I wish I WERE a deep thinker, but I'll never be one. <BR/><BR/>Tell me more about your experience at Matins! I'd love to hear.<BR/><BR/>I don't disagree about the covenant language in general. But do note that when God cut the covenant with Abraham in Gen. 15, God did ALL the walking. He passed between the pieces, to show that the covenant was GIFT not "deal" between two parties. Unequal in every respect.<BR/><BR/>About the language of walking in the commandments, think about 2 John 6. It's just the way the Holy Spirit teaches us through the Apostle to speak. <BR/><BR/>Similarly when our Lord told the rich young man that if he wanted to enter life he should keep the commandments. I used to hear that as: If you want to EARN eternal life then you have to keep the commandments (and of course neither he nor we can do that). <BR/><BR/>Now, I am wondering if he meant quite literally what he said: Enter LIFE. This is LIFE. These commandments are the way, the path, for LIFE that is really life is just LOVE, just communion with Him who IS Love and whose will is expressed in the commandments. So our Lord wasn't telling the person what he had to do to EARN life, but how such life is "entered" or lived.<BR/><BR/>Thoughts?William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-1135122635233961862005-12-20T17:50:00.000-06:002005-12-20T17:50:00.000-06:00Dear Pastor Weedon,As usual I am awed by your bril...Dear Pastor Weedon,<BR/>As usual I am awed by your brilliance. You are so smart that I suspecct at times you may miss the easy stuff. In this case I think you missed the point of the quote. As I learned from listening to Issues Etc... on KFUO a covenant was sealled by walking between the sacrifice. So we are "walking uprightly" not in the Commandments but in sealing our covenant with the Christ. It is in the Covenant that we are saved not in the walk or in the Commandments. So look to the promise and not to yourself. <BR/><BR/>I love Matins. It was during Matins that I came to the realization of my Salvation. <BR/>Best wishes,<BR/>Barry O'ConnellAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-1134870842660679292005-12-17T19:54:00.000-06:002005-12-17T19:54:00.000-06:00My good vicar helped me hear how it could be heard...My good vicar helped me hear how it could be heard (a denial of justus), which was not at all what the initial insight meant. But I am at a bit of a loss how to put the insight except the way I initially expressed it. Old Melanchthon spoke truer words never than when he wrote: "Nothing can be so clearly stated as it cannot be misunderstood." And if it's true for such a clear writer as he, it is definitely true for such a sloppy writer as I. Pax Christi!William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-1134870686112790422005-12-17T19:51:00.000-06:002005-12-17T19:51:00.000-06:00Who's disregarding the Symbols or the Scriptures?D...Who's disregarding the Symbols or the Scriptures?<BR/><BR/>Do you see how saying that the keeping of the commandments "the road that ends in the Kingdom, the pathway toward Him" could easily be understood in a legalistic way?<BR/><BR/>I am glad that you have shed you antinomianism, but don't lose your healthy Lutheran fear of legalism.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-1134859184149588482005-12-17T16:39:00.000-06:002005-12-17T16:39:00.000-06:00You *sounded* like you were arguing against good w...You *sounded* like you were arguing against good works when you asked if I were keeping the commandments. The Confessions teach that anyone who has saving faith has a beginning of keeping the commandments that must increase more and more. You were speaking of a perfect keeping of the commandments; but because we cannot and do not keep them perfectly, that is no reason to disregard what the Symbols (reflecting Scripture itself) say about growing in obedience. It will never be the basis of your relationship with God; but it sure as shootin a result of a gracious relationship with God. They are the "road that ends in the Kingdom!"William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-1134854108913374672005-12-17T15:15:00.000-06:002005-12-17T15:15:00.000-06:00Who's arguing against Good Works?My only concern i...Who's arguing against Good Works?<BR/><BR/>My only concern is calling the keeping of the commandments "the road that ends in the Kingdom, the pathway toward Him."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-1134841517142548032005-12-17T11:45:00.000-06:002005-12-17T11:45:00.000-06:00From the Apology:"We openly confess, therefore, th...From the Apology:<BR/><BR/>"We openly confess, therefore, that the keeping of the law MUST begin in us and then INCREASE more and more. And we include both simultaneously, namely, the inner spiritual impulses and the outward good works."Apology IV:136<BR/><BR/>"Besides, we have sufficiently shown above that we maintain that *good works must necessarily follow faith*. For we do not abolish the law, Paul says, but we establish it, because when we receive the Holy Spirit by faith the fulfillment of the law *necessarily follows*, through which love, patience, chastity, and other fruits of the Spirit *continually grow*." Ap. XX:14,15William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-1134767888233012922005-12-16T15:18:00.000-06:002005-12-16T15:18:00.000-06:00Wisdom! Let us attend!Wisdom! Let us attend!William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-1134766741400793672005-12-16T14:59:00.000-06:002005-12-16T14:59:00.000-06:00St. Mark the Ascetic rightly says:"18. Some withou...St. Mark the Ascetic rightly says:<BR/><BR/>"18. Some without fulfilling the commandments think that they possess true faith. Others fulfil the commandments and then expect the kingdom as a reward due to them. Both are mistaken."<BR/><BR/>from "On those who think that they are made righteous by works," in Volume 1 of the Philokalia.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-1134759475247328952005-12-16T12:57:00.000-06:002005-12-16T12:57:00.000-06:00Now you're talking! When our heavenly Father give...Now you're talking! When our heavenly Father gives us His Holy Spirit so that we 1) believe His holy Word and 2) LEAD GODLY LIVES HERE IN TIME and hereafter in eternity. <BR/><BR/>Leading godly lives is what the Holy Spirit is seeking to work within us, as you just said, and this godly life is precisely walking the path of the commandments.William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-1134759245001585252005-12-16T12:54:00.000-06:002005-12-16T12:54:00.000-06:00I was taught to pray, "Thy Kindgom come," not "Kin...I was taught to pray, "Thy Kindgom come," not "Kingdom, here I come."<BR/><BR/>Thy kingdom come.<BR/><BR/>What does this mean?--Answer.<BR/><BR/>The kingdom of God comes indeed without our prayer, of itself; but we pray in this petition that it may come unto us also.<BR/><BR/>How is this done?--Answer.<BR/><BR/>When our heavenly Father gives us His Holy Spirit, so that by His grace we believe His holy Word and lead a godly life here in time and yonder in eternity.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-1134758597611954592005-12-16T12:43:00.000-06:002005-12-16T12:43:00.000-06:00The answer of course is yes and no. Yes, there is...The answer of course is yes and no. Yes, there is a beginning of keeping them. No, there is no perfection in keeping them. Basic Romans 7 stuff, you know. Therefore the prayer is constantly, "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner!" But it is the keeping of them that is the road to the Kingdom - not that it EARNS the kingdom (which is always a gift!) For the Kingdom is love and love is the fulfillment of the commandments.<BR/><BR/>Glory to Jesus Christ!William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-1134758078008175032005-12-16T12:34:00.000-06:002005-12-16T12:34:00.000-06:00But in the initial post, you wrote, "It is that ke...But <B>in the initial post</B>, you wrote, "It is that keeping them, walking in them, is simply the road that ends in the Kingdom, the pathway toward Him."<BR/><BR/>Are you keeping them?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-1134757420215281992005-12-16T12:23:00.000-06:002005-12-16T12:23:00.000-06:00Dear Anonymous, Please refer to the initial post: ...Dear Anonymous, <BR/><BR/>Please refer to the initial post: to walk the path of the commandments is to cry continually, "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner!" Whoever said that we reach a point in our life where we can keep the commandments - at least perfectly. But the Catechism clearly teaches that we are to be GROWING in our keeping of the commandments. We'll never reach the point in this age when we keep them without fail, and so our constant plea for mercy. Or, as St. Augustine put it: We would attribute too much to ourselves if we did not remain under God's pardon to the end. <BR/><BR/>But the fact that we remain under the merciful pardon of God does not exclude but precisely enables the growing obedience to the commandments that the Larger Catechism describes quite clearly. "*We* always keep purging away whatever belongs to the old Adam." <BR/><BR/>Glory to Jesus Christ!William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-1134752995364370052005-12-16T11:09:00.000-06:002005-12-16T11:09:00.000-06:00Are you keeping the commandments?The full quote sa...Are you keeping the commandments?<BR/><BR/>The full quote says, "Therefore the old man goes unrestrained in his nature if he is not checked and suppressed by the power of Baptism. On the other hand, where men have become Christians, he daily decreases until he finally perishes. That is truly to be buried in Baptism, and daily to come forth again."<BR/><BR/>It is saying that the old man perishes daily by Baptism, not that we reach a point in life where we can keep the commandments. <BR/><BR/>And later it teaches that the old man is with us for life, "If, therefore, we have once in Baptism obtained forgiveness of sin, it will remain every day, <B>as long as we live, that is, as long as we carry the old man about our neck</B>.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-1134746373619942882005-12-16T09:19:00.000-06:002005-12-16T09:19:00.000-06:00Anonymous,Give me your understanding of these word...Anonymous,<BR/><BR/>Give me your understanding of these words from the Larger Catechism:<BR/><BR/>"For this must be done without ceasing, that we always keep purging away whatever belongs to the old Adam. Then what belongs to the new man may come forth. But what is the old man? It is what is born in human beings from Adam: anger, hate, envy, unchastity, stinginess, laziness, arrogance - yes, unbelief. The old man is infected with all vices and has by nature nothing good in him. Now when we come to Christ's kingdom, these things must daily decrease. The longer we live the more we become gentle, patient, meek, and ever turn away from unbelief, greed, hatred, envy, and arrogance.... On the other hand, where people have become Christians, the old man daily decreases until finally he perishes." (LC IV:65-67, 71) WeedonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-1134745694874552532005-12-16T09:08:00.000-06:002005-12-16T09:08:00.000-06:00Goodness! Where ever do you come up with these th...Goodness! Where ever do you come up with these things? It's not that our Blessed Lord makes salvation POSSIBLE, now work at it! It's that He makes salvation present, now LIVE it! <BR/><BR/>Our blessed Lord said to His disciples: "Seek ye first the Kingdom!" The holy Apostle says: "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, because it is God who is at work in you both to will and to do for His good purpose." Saint James teaches: "Draw near to God and He will draw near to you." Saint John exhorts: "And everyone who has this hope in Him, purifies Himself just as He is pure." Saint Paul again exhorts: "Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, bringing holiness to completion in the fear of God." - WeedonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-1134744825533652582005-12-16T08:53:00.000-06:002005-12-16T08:53:00.000-06:00So....He made salvation possible. Now it's up to ...So....He made salvation possible. Now it's up to us. How ya doing on your moral ascent to the Father? Not so good? Well...work at it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-1134739495268012682005-12-16T07:24:00.000-06:002005-12-16T07:24:00.000-06:00Anonymous,Whoever said that he didn't do both of t...Anonymous,<BR/><BR/>Whoever said that he didn't do both of those things? Of course He kept the commandments - and did so for us - and of course He brings the Kingdom to us. The real shame is to miss that He did that so that we would and could do the other! Glory to His name forever!William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-1134709177534996712005-12-15T22:59:00.000-06:002005-12-15T22:59:00.000-06:00Keeping the commandments is the pathway toward Him...Keeping the commandments is the pathway toward Him.<BR/><BR/>It’s a shame He couldn’t keep those commandments for us.<BR/><BR/>You write, “there is no attaining of eternal life apart from walking in the way of the commandments, because that's the path that leads to Him and to the Kingdom.” <BR/><BR/>Wouldn’t it be great if He travelled the path that leads to us, if He brought His Kingdom to us?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-1134687916151219952005-12-15T17:05:00.000-06:002005-12-15T17:05:00.000-06:00Oh, and David, I agree with your observation about...Oh, and David, I agree with your observation about sounding either way depending on what's being aimed at.William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-1134687840183661212005-12-15T17:04:00.000-06:002005-12-15T17:04:00.000-06:00But Paul, it is only the path of the law that enab...But Paul, it is only the path of the law that enables one to despair of one's own righteousness. Thus it leads to the Kingdom.William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-1134687331923377362005-12-15T16:55:00.000-06:002005-12-15T16:55:00.000-06:00I too have this problem of being an antinomian at ...I too have this problem of being an antinomian at heart. I need to be reminded that God's law is good. With that said I completely disagree with this statement "But there is no attaining of eternal life apart from walking in the way of the commandments, because that's the path that leads to Him and to the Kingdom." No, the path to him is to despair of your self rightousness and cling to Christ. I think that is basically what you meant but I get nervous when I hear about works being a path to Jesus.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-1134682644943446592005-12-15T15:37:00.000-06:002005-12-15T15:37:00.000-06:00I know some of it, Peter.Some of it?! It took me a...<I>I know some of it, Peter.</I><BR/><BR/><B>Some</B> of it?! It took me about 45 seconds to scroll down past that list of Weedons. I think you've got everyone in there back to Noah!<BR/><BR/>On the subject at hand, I think to call your former position "antinomian at heart" is going too far. Of course, I can't read your heart, but I think there's a major difference between shying away from a full expression of the goodness of the Law--for the sake of defending the Gospel--and antinomianism. When orthodoxy argues against antinomianism, it often sounds legalistic. When it argues against legalism, it often sounds antinomian. That doesn't change the fact that it is, at heart, orthodoxy.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12613559628060020686noreply@blogger.com