tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post1841020854614569239..comments2024-03-24T05:54:23.612-05:00Comments on Weedon's Blog: EmendataWilliam Weedonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-75994153342044174422009-07-07T15:44:21.545-05:002009-07-07T15:44:21.545-05:00Rev. Franck, um, yeah. Images of Mary on a throne...Rev. Franck, um, yeah. Images of Mary on a throne make it hard to put a best construction on the whole "Queen of Heaven" thing.... last I checked, queen mothers don't sit on thrones.<br /><br />Pr. Weedon, as I mentioned, I was able to figure out pretty quickly that these weren't intended to be anti-Mary. But having said that, I would be concerned if people started promoting these as songs we might really want to sing, rather than just looking at them as historical curiosities. We have plenty of hymns (better ones, frankly) that offer this type of prayer and praise to Jesus, without that risk of confusion.Anonymous Lutheranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13146153012785131550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-5113118477628122092009-07-07T11:03:12.554-05:002009-07-07T11:03:12.554-05:00This post reminded me of the window in the chapel ...This post reminded me of the window in the chapel at Concordia University Wisconsin in Mequon, Wisconsin. Originally a convent, the chapel's window featured an impressive stained glass rendition of Mary on the throne of heaven. But when the LCMS bought the campus, the window was "emended" to be an image of Christ Himself on the throne.Rev. Robert Franckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05605463381805986068noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-20630200965390627382009-07-03T00:17:17.200-05:002009-07-03T00:17:17.200-05:00Don't miss the cover by Aaron Neville!Don't miss the cover by Aaron Neville!Past Elderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10541968132598367551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-14992645519378584562009-07-03T00:04:43.757-05:002009-07-03T00:04:43.757-05:00Something I learned as a kid, along with the four ...Something I learned as a kid, along with the four Marian hymns in Latin:<br /><br />Lovely lady, dressed in blue,<br />Teach us how to pray.<br />God was once your little boy,<br />And you know the way.<br /><br />Here's another one, gratis:<br /><br />Every time I pass a church,<br />I stop and make a visit,<br />So that when I'm carried in,<br />The Lord won't say "Who is it?".Past Elderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10541968132598367551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-33944597802438439942009-07-02T22:16:57.698-05:002009-07-02T22:16:57.698-05:00I've never been persuaded by the whole Diana t...<i>I've never been persuaded by the whole Diana thingy.</i><br /><br />Don't think so either, Pastor Weedon. Catholic Marian theology is firmly rooted in a real and historical person, Mary of Nazareth. The reverence for the Mother of God is very longstanding in the ancient churches of the Middle East.<br /><br />The way that Marian piety developed in the Church of Rome is another matter. Suffice it to say that for Catholic Christianity she represented the "feminine" face of God and softened the sometimes "harsh" image that in the views of some a very masculine prophetic Christianity portrayed.<br /><br />ChristineAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-61308045750814306572009-07-02T22:01:50.904-05:002009-07-02T22:01:50.904-05:00Dear Anon Lutheran,
As I recently wrote to a frie...Dear Anon Lutheran,<br /><br />As I recently wrote to a friend, you mustn't hear Urbanus' revisions of these antiphons as anti-Marian. He was anything but! In his wonderful little book on how to preach the Reformation, he exclaimed:<br /><br />"O that blessed city of God, into which so many children, virgins, and martyrs have been received, where we will see for eternity apostles, prophets, patriarchs, and the righteous who have believed in Christ, from Adam up to the last Christian on earth! We will see choirs of angels, and the most blessed mother herself who is the noblest member of the mystical body!"<br /><br />In early Lutheranism and for some time afterward, the feasts of the Annunciation, Visitation, (in some places the Dormition), the Nativity and the Purification continued among us to celebrate with joy the gift of the Virgin Mary and did not at all shy away from singing about the wonders God worked in and through her to save our fallen race. <br /><br />So while the Lutheran liturgy completely nixed invoking the Virgin (or the other saints), it maintained a rather robust rejoicing in her and with her in the grace that God manifested through her for our salvation.William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-41539206463217816612009-07-02T21:55:41.852-05:002009-07-02T21:55:41.852-05:00The thing that bothers me about these revisions is...The thing that bothers me about these revisions is that however useful they might have been at the time they were made, I think their effect on the modern hearer will be something different, and not so positive.<br /><br />When I was growing up, I was exposed to varying levels of anti-Mary paranoia that were basically bizarre, and in some cases actually slanderous toward our Lord's mother.<br /><br />When I read these, my first reaction was that it was more of the same: this practice of placing Jesus and Mary in opposition to each other, and using the belittlement of Mary as a means of glorifying Jesus. I had consciously back up and re-think it to realize that was probably not the intent at all.<br /><br />I can't help thinking others would have a similar reaction, and possibly be unable or unwilling to see it any other way.Anonymous Lutheranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13146153012785131550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-18502842435576804132009-07-02T21:54:31.607-05:002009-07-02T21:54:31.607-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymous Lutheranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13146153012785131550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-35697648446516755242009-07-02T20:42:28.412-05:002009-07-02T20:42:28.412-05:00Certainly along with adapting local religion for a...Certainly along with adapting local religion for a well-intended but misadvised catechesis (which we still do trying to "relate to the world"), no less an influence is the tendency in the RCC to theologise everything in sight. Usually Platonically, in the period from which these popular devotions come.<br /><br />Co-redemptrix and Mediatrix are two such terms. They don't mean what one would think, but what they do mean at best clouds the whole issue.<br /><br />Co-redemptrix goes back to Irenaeus' reference to her as the causa salutis, the cause of salvation, meaning her free consent to the words of Gabriel. It does not mean she is equally redeemer along with Christ.<br /><br />Mediatrix similarly does not mean Mary is the mediator instead of Christ, but that having consented to give Christ human birth, as the mediator of Christ she is the mediator of all graces which come from Christ.<br /><br />Properly understood, neither of these concepts denies Christ as the source of all grace and salvation. The problem is, when her assent to the message of Gabriel to her is theologised to death, the simple Gospel may be still in there someplace but gets rather hard to disentangle and so usually doesn't get disentangled.<br /><br />Thus, as Luther lamented, does what should have been the clearest thing about the church become the most obscure.<br /><br />And I don't think Mary, having indeed mediated all grace to Man having borne Christ, is too happy about it.<br /><br />Diana seems to have passed more clearly to other non-Christian Italian religion, or to Nicevenn -- Abundia to the Germans.Past Elderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10541968132598367551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-7377416161144732602009-07-02T20:27:13.464-05:002009-07-02T20:27:13.464-05:00Terry,
I suspect that the Good Bishop Urbanus off...Terry,<br /><br />I suspect that the Good Bishop Urbanus offered an "evangelical" rendering because the two hymns were rather beloved musical pieces, and the people were used to them at the end of Vespers/Compline. So he stayed as close as he could to the original wording, but redirected them to our Lord. It's easier to replace in popular piety than simply to take away.<br /><br />Paul, <br /><br />I've never been persuaded by the whole Diana thingy. I think Sasse was onto something more profound when he noted that the place where one would expect prayer to the Holy Spirit to arise was instead filled by prayer to the saints. Note the similarity in this regard: the Spirit (and the Son) pray for us - Scripture reveals this - but it is nonsense for the Father to pray. He is the primary hearer of prayer. Instead of the prayer to the Spirit developing fully in the liturgy of the Church, we have full fledged prayer to the Son and then the saints. Sasse pointed out that much of the ancient world was wiped away before the important work could be finished dogmatically on the Spirit.William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-78342552533319484162009-07-02T19:40:32.265-05:002009-07-02T19:40:32.265-05:00Sasse develops a very good case that the seed of t...Sasse develops a very good case that the seed of the Cult of Mary lies in the worship of Diana in Roman culture and it was a way to appease/accomodate and provide some kind of substitute for a desire to have some kind of woman deity.<br /><br />He makes quite a lot of sense.<br /><br />"Anonymous" if you would be willing to identify yourself, I'd be happy to send you more information.<br /><br />Contact me at paul.mccain@cph.orgRev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-7360686114553738732009-07-02T18:40:35.484-05:002009-07-02T18:40:35.484-05:00So.. how did all the Mary worship come about anyho...So.. how did all the Mary worship come about anyhow?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-16195490820461192752009-07-02T18:31:23.054-05:002009-07-02T18:31:23.054-05:00What possible point is there in any of this?
Unli...What possible point is there in any of this?<br /><br />Unlike the liturgy, these two of the four Marian hymns are not things that went awry over time under Rome, they are original compositions meant to be exactly what they are and nothing else, and are sung at Compline (Lauds too if you're really into it).<br /><br />As a Lutheran, therefore, there is nothing to reform here back to its purity in accord with the liturgical aims of the Confessions. Nothing here different than the idea that we can infuse Lutheran content into CCM. Nor, being hymns, are they properly part of chant either, a practice which can be used.<br /><br />Had I seen this sort of stuff as an RC, it would have only further confirmed what I thought at the time, that Lutherans are just wannabe Catholics who don't get the message of the church which comes from Christ and the Apostles and thus rewrite whatever they don't like to suit themselves.<br /><br />In late Latin like this, a variant Regina coeli came to be interchangeable with Regina caeli, and you will sometimes hear German singers pronounce the oe as an Umlaut, which is kind of amusing.Past Elderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10541968132598367551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-21380467650546181342009-07-02T17:05:02.439-05:002009-07-02T17:05:02.439-05:00Oh, one more thing. I am not sure if Ben mentioned...Oh, one more thing. I am not sure if Ben mentioned it to you, Will, but...the book offers a preface of the revision of the Regina Coeli, noting that the Regina Coeli is an "evil prayer."<br /><br />I was delighted to see that our old friend Urbanus Rhegius was responsible for this.Rev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-78268796500200338822009-07-02T16:32:16.951-05:002009-07-02T16:32:16.951-05:00Delightful and I know that there is nobody more pl...Delightful and I know that there is nobody more pleased than the Dear Lady who said, "Whatever He tells you, do."Rev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.com