tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post3773741794712497611..comments2024-03-24T05:54:23.612-05:00Comments on Weedon's Blog: On Variation in Text of the OrdinaryWilliam Weedonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-6171173183603901182009-10-18T14:49:40.734-05:002009-10-18T14:49:40.734-05:00(I hope this is related.)
I've noticed in Bac...(I hope this is related.)<br /><br />I've noticed in Bach's Mass in B minor that there are changes in the texts. The only one I've noticed is in the Sanctus. Most hymnals use the older "gloria tua" [eg. ELH pgs. 51, 76, 100] in the second person, but Bach uses the third person "gloria ejus." <br /><br />Mendelssohn (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvsB7IP2WGQ) also uses the third person (or so the English translation I sang did) "Ev'ry nation proclaims His glorious praise." <br /><br />Luther uses the third person [ELH 40]: "Behold His glory filleth all the earth!"<br /><br />Why is this?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-33936543830403931772009-10-17T23:15:51.385-05:002009-10-17T23:15:51.385-05:00I am with you on the Common Service being the more...I am with you on the Common Service being the more faithful translation of the prose text. <br /><br />I try not to think about it when I am singing the Gloria from DS1 and DS2!<br /><br />I favored a new musical setting with an updated, faithful translation of the texts. I suppose I need to wait for the next hymnal for that, or brush up on my high school Latin and start translating from scratch!<br /><br />I don't mind DS4, but the three-fold form of the Agnus Dei is hidden, as it is only 2 stanzas.IggyAntiochushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04448305182789845259noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-64763450022775223692009-10-14T13:19:48.315-05:002009-10-14T13:19:48.315-05:00Anon,
Dr. Luther was never called to sit upon th...Anon, <br /><br />Dr. Luther was never called to sit upon the cathedra in St. John's Lateran. The fact that LSB contains an order in which a living Lutheran pastor offered hymn paraphrases of the same ordinary shows that hymn paraphrases still have their place in Lutheranism, even modern ones, but they remain paraphrases *of the Ordinary* and rather like Dr. Luther's they were accepted by a wider body and used beyond a single parish.William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-49169828549423049052009-10-14T08:53:04.668-05:002009-10-14T08:53:04.668-05:00Why is it ok for "Pope Martin" to make h...Why is it ok for "Pope Martin" to make his own home-made liturgy (DS-V) when it isn't ok for Lutheran pastors to do so today?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-25855604832697749792009-10-13T18:07:29.443-05:002009-10-13T18:07:29.443-05:00A "Latin" gloria and a "German"...A "Latin" gloria and a "German" gloria remains a gloria, and the situation is not at all analogous to a gloria or some other song in praise of God. Likewise the credo etc. To read this as an excuse for our present situation misunderstands both.Past Elderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10541968132598367551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-862260470470479122009-10-13T16:35:58.023-05:002009-10-13T16:35:58.023-05:00You get no argument from me on that basically, Fr....You get no argument from me on that basically, Fr. Peters, but it is a shame that when I say:<br /><br />The Lord be with you.<br /><br />The people HAVE to look down to figure out whether to say:<br /><br />And also with you.<br /><br />Or <br /><br />And with thy spirit.<br /><br />Or <br /><br />And with your spirit.<br /><br />Sigh...William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-45492992477723669992009-10-13T16:33:38.126-05:002009-10-13T16:33:38.126-05:00it's a crying shame that we have various texts...it's a crying shame that we have various texts of the ordinary, which really result in differing liturgies, not "settings" as they are misnamed...<br /><br />Well yes and no... the absolute uniformity of texts certainly was not achieved until probably Trent in Rome and never in Lutheranism... <br /><br />But... why is this such a crying shame... I mean in comparison to what is happening in parishes called Lutheran on the signboard, I would welcome the limited diversity of texts and music that fall within the realm of almost any of the published books of the LCMS going back to whenever... <br /><br />It sometimes troubles me that we lament the lack of absolute uniformity in text (and some in music) while missing the elephant in the room... Such focus often distorts the intention of those who love and promote the liturgy and makes us sound ominous and foreboding -- the definitive bad guys in the debate... Just a thought...Pastor Petershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10653554256101480140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-86625362627478590352009-10-13T16:28:56.488-05:002009-10-13T16:28:56.488-05:00Tapani,
Did you know that Dr. Lee Maxwell and I s...Tapani,<br /><br />Did you know that Dr. Lee Maxwell and I suggested such many years ago? We had a paper out on it that suggested the classical Swedish ordering (and Luther's from FM) was actually desirable because of how clearly it confessed. Dr. Quill included our suggestion in his book *The Impact of the LIturgical Movement on American Lutheranism.* But it only made it vestigially into LSB - in DS 4 you can see something of the old Swedish prayer in the Preface, but the ordering of Sanctus falling after the Verba was maintained only in DS 5.William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-11331421100686393542009-10-13T16:21:59.570-05:002009-10-13T16:21:59.570-05:00Pastor W, aren't you an expert on the Swedish ...Pastor W, aren't you an expert on the Swedish Mass? Until very recently, vestiges of it still remained in Sweden and (even more recently) in Finland.<br /><br />One thing that I like in it, and have missed in the many years of my exile, is the combination of the two traditions. You have both the prose and the chorales. So you are likely to have the Kyrie and Gloria, for example, but perhaps followed by a hymn to the Trinity; a Gradual hymn but the Nicene Creed. Etc.<br /><br />One of the positive consequences is that in a normal communion service, you sing six or seven hymns <i>as well as</i> (at least the majority of) the ordinary of the mass. Best of both worlds. And if you have a lot of communicants, that could go up to eight or nine. At the moment, we have far too few opportunities to sing hymns in the Divine Service.<br /><br />Oh, and the Sanctus after the verba, which was Luther's one genuine liturgical innovation, and an absolutely brilliant one at that. Bring it back!<br /><br />Ooooh... I can feel another hymnal revision coming on. Better take some Aspirin.Tapani Simojokihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16554859269922495896noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-85590220161569127662009-10-13T14:08:47.296-05:002009-10-13T14:08:47.296-05:00Amen, Jon. And the unacknowledged history of the ...Amen, Jon. And the unacknowledged history of the Saxon service *in English* (thanks to Crull). You can pick up darned near any standard history of liturgy for the Synod and it is as though it never existed, yet it preceded the Common Service by some five years, and persisted right up to the publication of The Lutheran Hymnal in our official Agendas. Stuff you know, I realize, but that most folks simply don't. It's sad. The history needs to be written again and the Saxon heritage finally acknowledged.William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-43485254304299117982009-10-13T13:58:26.445-05:002009-10-13T13:58:26.445-05:00Exceedingly well put! Bravo! And just to add an ad...Exceedingly well put! Bravo! And just to add an additional historical note, to chime in (no pun intended) with your church bell's "Allein Gott. . ." inscription. <br /><br />The chorale mass tradition was SO ingrained in the minds of our Saxon LCMS father, that this was virtually ALL they knew in practice for the Kyrie, Gloria, and Credo portions of the service. You see this in the Kirchenagende of 1856 and all subsequent LCMS German Agendas. This suggests a couple of things . . .<br /><br />1) that the Credo was virtually never spoken in Divine Service, but rather sung to Luther's "Wir glauben All . . ."<br /><br />2) that when the English Common Service of 1888 came along, it was a WAY different service than what the German LCMS had been used to. This may partially help to explain why there was such worship chaos in the worship transition from German to English. <br /><br />FWIW,<br /><br />ViekerhausAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com