tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post5686587813564724018..comments2024-03-24T05:54:23.612-05:00Comments on Weedon's Blog: What's SadWilliam Weedonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comBlogger37125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-4849325033751746072009-08-26T20:50:00.644-05:002009-08-26T20:50:00.644-05:00Could you explain that? A lot of people saw it fir...<i>Could you explain that? A lot of people saw it first hand and two thirds voted for it.</i><br /><br />I'm not actually referring to the two thirds vote that just went down.<br /><br />I was in an ELCA parish shortly after the merger of the LCA, ALC and AELC.<br /><br />The positions of the ELCA on issues such as what it means to be Lutheran, women's ordination, the meaning of Scripture, life and marriage issues and the implications of the ecumenical partnerships of the ELCA changed and kept changing.<br /><br />That doesn't mean that there aren't faithful Lutherans in the ELCA, there are. But the elites in Chicago aren't necessarily in tune with the folks in the pews.<br /><br />Nor am I impressed by the two thirds vote. People can very well be two thirds wrong.<br /><br />ChristineAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-39361844284253616542009-08-26T12:51:51.989-05:002009-08-26T12:51:51.989-05:00It seems, from everything I have read, that the EL...It seems, from everything I have read, that the ELCAers who are going to flee will not come to the LCMS but will go to the LCMC which does allow for the ordination of women as well as other anti-Scriptural, anti-historic Christianity stances. So, I wouldn't go out and extend any olive branches. THey're looking another way.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06200319733737651773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-74223227559489454262009-08-26T09:24:35.165-05:002009-08-26T09:24:35.165-05:00Sorry, Kevin, I saw firsthand what happened in the...<em>Sorry, Kevin, I saw firsthand what happened in the ELCA. It's very sad.</em><br /><br />Could you explain that? A lot of people saw it first hand and two thirds voted for it.Doorman-Priesthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06407399232593479871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-53016392160948088192009-08-25T21:41:31.612-05:002009-08-25T21:41:31.612-05:00wow, your service is almost exactly like ours, exc...<i>wow, your service is almost exactly like ours, except we (Catholic) leave the last part of the Lord's Prayer off.</i><br /><br />That's no compliment to Catholics who haven't got a clue as to the Eucharistic canon in their own church.<br /><br />The fact that the worship of the ELCA is so similar in the eyes of Catholics and ELCA Lutherans proves once again that the ELCA had its own "Vatican II" for Lutherans and it ain't a good thing.<br /><br />It wasn't until I returned to the LCMS that I was able to sort it all out.<br /><br /><i>I couldn't understand why the Roman Catholic architect so strongly resisted a Communion rail until he blurted out, "You don't want one of those. I've spent the last 15 years ripping 'em out of every church in the diocese."</i><br /><br />Oh by golly yes Miss Ellie! Shades of Father Richard Vosko! The man took out enough altar rails to build a yacht!<br /><br />Sorry, Kevin, I saw firsthand what happened in the ELCA. It's very sad.<br /><br />ChristineAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-7257481815999579532009-08-25T18:02:18.118-05:002009-08-25T18:02:18.118-05:00I am an ELCA member who at this point is planning ...I am an ELCA member who at this point is planning to stay. I have nothing but the highest respect for Pastor Weedon. We have had discussions on ALPB and he has always answered my questions in a congenial way, while challenging me to think deeper and explore my faith. <br /><br />The reason that many of ELCA people would not go to the LCMS is that there seems to be, right or wrong, this rivalry. You don't like us, we don't like you. That is what many people think. I have heard from both sides, "well, they don't have any respect for us, I'd never step into their church". <br /><br />That is very sad. As to moving to RC, we have had many Catholic visitors at our congregation for weddings, funerals, etc. and the comment from them is always, wow, your service is almost exactly like ours, except we (Catholic) leave the last part of the Lord's Prayer off.<br /><br />The other problem with moving to LCMS is that most of the ELCA people, a huge majority, that I know, want to keep our communion practices and women's ordination. And yes, the big push in the ELCA that we believe is our social activism and community outreach. And I know that LCMS does community outreach, too, but the feeling is that they do it on their own while we do it with other Christians and that is better.<br /><br />I'm not saying it is, I just wanted you to get an idea from someone who is very involved in the ELCA. BTW, I opposed the decisions in Minneapolis.<br /><br />I don't see a large migration from us to you, but I would recommend that you approach ELCA members like Pastor Weedon does and you will have much more respect and understanding and be able to actually teach. When anyone feels attacked, their first reaction is defensive and that usually turns off listening.<br /><br />Kevinkevin chttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13689267616573339001noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-37793892095523060812009-08-25T16:26:34.242-05:002009-08-25T16:26:34.242-05:00>>What a striking thing for the former Metho...>>What a striking thing for the former Methodist to say!<br /><br />Actually, take a look at the 1964 Methodist hymnal. At St. John's College, Winfield, Kansas, we could take courses at the United Methodist Southwestern College a few blocks up the road for free. In my senior year (1982) I took "Music in the Parish Setting." The required textbook was . . . The Lutheran Hymnal. I was the only SJC student in the class, and all the Methodists complained about having to go to the SJC bookstore to buy a TLH. The professor said, "You may not like to hear it, but The Lutheran Hymnal of 1941 is the finest hymnal ever produced in the English language. I was hymn editor for the '64 Methodist hymnal, and my goal was to make it as close as possible to The Lutheran Hymnal."<br /><br />If you take a look you'll see that is indeed true in many respects. So, I think it is primarily the hymns they are referring to, as versus praise songs, and just using a hymnal at all, versus projecting on a screen. <br /><br />However, there is also a surprising amount of liturgical content in the 1964 Methodist hymnal, in the Anglican and therefore TLH tradition. That book was probably the liturgical zenith for American Methodists, who had something akin to their own "St. James" movement like the LCMS in those years.<br /><br />Though we are a mission congregation, Holy Cross is unabashedly liturgical -- every Sunday Communion, I chant all the Liturgy including the Proper Preface and Words of Institution, etc. -- but one my elders is the son of a Methodist minister and he said coming here "reminds me of Dad doing a service when I was a child." Hopefully he's not referring to the doctrinal content! :) But, I think he does mean: We actually still use a hymnal vs. projecting everything on a screen, we use an organ, we have the traditional structure of the Liturgy which you will also essentially find on pages 9ff in the back of the 1964 Methodist hymnal, etc. <br /><br />Another young man who is a former Methodist was the strongest advocate for a Communion rail in our new sanctuary (pictures at www.holycrossdakotadunes.org) saying, "It just doesn't feel like Communion not to kneel." I couldn't understand why the Roman Catholic architect so strongly resisted a Communion rail until he blurted out, "You don't want one of those. I've spent the last 15 years ripping 'em out of every church in the diocese."<br /><br />The one area of our worship that those from all other denominations, even ELCA to a certain extent, find challenging is our rhythmic hymns vs. the isorhythmic versions of the same tunes which are apparently used by most of the rest of Christendom except for certain Dutch Reformed groups, i.e. "A Mighty Fortress" in LSB 656 vs. 657. To me the rythmic tunes seem so entirely natural I didn't even realize this until recently when there was a bit of an uprising in adult instruction class over this issue! There were several stripes represented, Methodist, Roman Catholic, UCC, and ELCA, and they all agreed that our hymns are "halting," "jerky," etc. I explained the history and that they would grow to love these "sturdy hymnns of old" (LSB 813:2).<br /><br />Rev. Kevin Vogts<br />www.holycrossdakotadunes.orgAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-86904073211563282362009-08-25T15:47:21.010-05:002009-08-25T15:47:21.010-05:00Past Elder, the ELCE, remains a confessional Luthe...Past Elder, the ELCE, remains a confessional Lutheran Church and is NOT trending this was whatsoever.<br /><br />Andrew SmithAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-45916229942453386932009-08-25T11:53:00.174-05:002009-08-25T11:53:00.174-05:00Pastor Vogts,
What a striking thing for the forme...Pastor Vogts,<br /><br />What a striking thing for the former Methodist to say!William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-52529793647637536362009-08-25T11:51:45.172-05:002009-08-25T11:51:45.172-05:00Matt,
I brought the same point up in the ALPB dis...Matt,<br /><br />I brought the same point up in the ALPB discussions, pointing out that we have no room for pride in this matter. We don't. To the extent we still stand, we need to "take heed, lest we fall." And for our sins we need not justification of the sin, but of the sinner, which always comes with the gift of repentance.William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-74797882680515481632009-08-25T11:18:09.537-05:002009-08-25T11:18:09.537-05:00I did not mean to imply that the Roman Catholic Ch...I did not mean to imply that the Roman Catholic Church actually is a better option, but they are so burned out on their struggles in the only "Lutheran" Church they have ever known that they erroneously imagine it to be.<br /><br />>>Imagine my joy at finding my current congregation that still worships in the traditional manner I knew as a child.<br /><br />Interestingly, I have gotten this same response not only from Lutherans but Roman Catholics, Methodists, etc. One Methodist young woman said in adult instruction class, "We searched everywhere for a normal church service. YOU SHOULD LET PEOPLE KNOW that you still have real, normal church services here. All our friends are looking for just a regular church with normal services. You can't imagine how hard that is to find."<br /><br />Rev. Kevin Vogts<br />www.holycrossdakotadunes.orgAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-49939336428161507232009-08-25T09:57:55.837-05:002009-08-25T09:57:55.837-05:00DP -- I would take it "we" is the Luther...DP -- I would take it "we" is the Lutheran Church in Great Britain, not the ELCE, is that right?Past Elderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10541968132598367551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-40940515915715634012009-08-25T09:22:35.050-05:002009-08-25T09:22:35.050-05:00Not to be at all provocative but I'm delighted...Not to be at all provocative but I'm delighted by the news myself. We are set to follow.Doorman-Priesthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06407399232593479871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-44010444364258586192009-08-25T08:19:16.040-05:002009-08-25T08:19:16.040-05:00For some, the LCMS has indeed been painted as extr...<i>For some, the LCMS has indeed been painted as extreme fundamentalist bordering on cultish.</i><br /><br />Pastor Vogts, when I left the ELCA in the mid-90's that's what I had heard too, that the LCMS had become "fundamentalist". Imagine my joy at finding my current congregation that still worships in the traditional manner I knew as a child.<br /><br />My sister is still in an ELCA congregation and not happy at all with what has transpired. She and her husband came to Divine Service with me at my church a couple weeks ago and she is looking forward to visting again.<br /><br />It is very, very sad for those ELCA Lutherans who are struggling to remain faithful to historic Christianity.<br /><br /><br />ChristineAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-8245829793748537452009-08-25T08:06:42.028-05:002009-08-25T08:06:42.028-05:00Interesting, Pastor Vogts. When I was in Catholic...Interesting, Pastor Vogts. When I was in Catholic circles, I was taught in Historical Jesus-Christ of Faith that Jesus isn't <br />really" the son of God either, that that was an ancient type of honorific whereby a person was named as "son of" after what most characterised him, so Jesus is no more the son of God literally than James or John were literally begotten by thunder, and those to whom Jesus is the Son of God in one way are equally Christian with those who retain an earlier understanding of the community.<br /><br />So I'll guess they'll feel right at home, if not with official teaching, with what is actually allowed to be taught.Past Elderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10541968132598367551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-24055106941277734652009-08-25T04:25:32.138-05:002009-08-25T04:25:32.138-05:00>>So why not LCMS?
I've served most of ...>>So why not LCMS?<br /><br />I've served most of my ministry in mission congregations, and most of my flock are former something -- and quite a few former nothing.<br /><br />Ironically, often those most resistant to joining the LCMS are former ELCA, for two polar opposite reasons. <br /><br />For some, the LCMS has indeed been painted as extreme fundamentalist bordering on cultish. One woman said she had been told that females were not allowed to speak at all inside an LCMS church building and was surprised to see females chatting -- with males no less! -- during coffee time after church.<br /><br />But, I would say more typical is a very sad degradation of the "Lutheran" brand. One couple I visited with recently was flabbergasted to learn there is still a major Lutheran church body out there that: a) doesn't have women clergy; b) doesn't endorse the homosexual agenda. <br /><br />Another man told me his ELCA pastor explained that they officially no longer believe in the Virgin Birth as confessed in the Creeds. I said that must just be that pastor's abberation -- until the man sent me a link to the ELCA web site which says exactly that: "When we confess in the Apostles' Creed that Jesus was 'conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary' . . . we are not making a gynecological assertion." It was my turn to be flabbergasted when I read that. I hadn't realized the ELCA had gone that far. <br /><br />The faithful in the ELCA have been fighting their own church body to retain the very basics of the faith for 20 years. For many, that is their entire adult life, and sadly that is the only "Lutheran Church" that they know, and from which they flee.<br /><br />Rev. Kevin Vogts<br />www.holycrossdakotadunes.orgAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-72952609083468861492009-08-24T21:50:49.639-05:002009-08-24T21:50:49.639-05:00I find it interesting to note, that we seem to dis...I find it interesting to note, that we seem to discuss the ELCA's "departuer from Scripture" or "setting aside the Word of God" and cite women's ordination as an example of that. <br /><br />And in so doing... i think we sometimes fall in that trap of "feeling we are better than them".<br /><br />What is interesting... is not one person has at least raised the question of how the LCMS has set aside the Word of God... in the exact same way!<br /><br />We focus on deviations from Liturgy and debate about whether it is Scriptural... but ignore discussions of clear cases where LCMS has abandoned God's Word.<br /><br />I am referring to the Scriptural imperative that a Pastor be "husband of one wife". The exact same scripture we use as the scriptural case against women's ordination. <br /><br />And i know for certain that we have a number of Pastor's in the LCMS who have been divorced and are remarried.<br /><br />How is it that we ignore our own clear deviations from Scripture? How do we justify that? How do we rationalize how that deviation is ok... but ordaining women is clearly a setting aside of God's word? <br /><br />How do we as a Church body think that we will NOT end up like ELCA in 5 years? 10? or 20?<br /><br />We can see clearly where their setting aside the Word of God led them... yet we seem to wear blinders when we look at our own Church body... what keeps us from going further down that slippery slope?<br /><br />Just curious here... and curious what others think... <br /><br />Not to be mean or argumentative... I am curious to others thinking on this?<br /><br />MattAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-74548765248551459482009-08-24T14:20:37.252-05:002009-08-24T14:20:37.252-05:00There's also no mystery at all about the minds...There's also no mystery at all about the mindset in the ELCA since they adopted the "Vatican II for Lutherans" culture. Social Justice is the biggie in the ELCA along with the historical-critical view of Scripture. It ain't fashionable to believe that Jesus actually DID those miracles. <br /><br />Having said that, there are faithful, orthodox Christians within the ELCA that now have some hard decisions to make.<br /><br />When I left my ELCA parish to go to Rome I had also heard that the LCMS had gone "fundamentalist." What a shame I didn't investigate further, for myself -- I could have joined the confessional LMCS parish I am in now much, much sooner.<br /><br />And quite frankly, I think the wrong questions are being asked here. We're all sinners, whether RC, EO, LCMS, ELCA or any other Christian body.<br /><br />The fact still remains that the ELCA has adopted positions on women's ordination, Scripture, marriage etc. etc. that are outside the bounds of orthodox Christianity.<br /><br />And to that issue a prophetic word is very much in order.<br /><br />ChristineAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-61158056414047052612009-08-24T12:16:19.727-05:002009-08-24T12:16:19.727-05:00Dixie mentioned that "for the ELCAer social a...Dixie mentioned that "for the ELCAer social action is as much a part of the faith as anything." I can corroborate that statement. I interact with ELCA seminary students at Luther Seminary and they regard social action as essential to the Gospel. When I talk about "justification of the ungodly" their hackles are raised (to them that is truncated and "not enough").Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-87404888436063953052009-08-24T10:58:08.684-05:002009-08-24T10:58:08.684-05:00Why would disenfranchised ELCAers be considering s...Why would disenfranchised ELCAers be considering swimming the Tiber? Despite the Novus Ordo and the secularization of the mass, there is a real, strong trend now of worship that is returning to the Tridentine Extraordinary Rite (i.e. pre-Vatican II) of the Mass. And that has great appeal to many and it may be a refuge for the departing ELCAers. Let's not forget that the ELCA, as part of the Lutheran World Federation, signed with the Vatican that joint declaration on justification. So, to them, maybe it won't be too much of a stretch.<br /><br />As a side note, I wonder what will be the fate of that declaration since I think most of the LWF members ordain practicing gays?<br /><br />With regards to what Dixie said about the ELCAers who complained that the LCMS doesn't do service projects, there is a little truth to that, at least as far as the whole synod goes. INdividual LCMS churches do a lot. Of course, for the ELCA, they have so depersonalized helping their fellow man and made their stewardship (I'm talking about the synod here) as helping for helping's sake, in other words, a type of works righteousness.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06200319733737651773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-87174857898487990712009-08-24T06:43:55.841-05:002009-08-24T06:43:55.841-05:00So why not LCMS? Are we seen as just too fundament...<i>So why not LCMS? Are we seen as just too fundamentalist and provincial? </i><br /><br />I always wondered about this. In our smallish Southern city we have 2 Lutheran churches, one LCMS and one ELCA. For a while the company I work for was recruiting specific talent which is more prevalent in the Midwest. We had 5 ELCA families from Iowa recruited by the company. The ELCA church in town has a reputation for being very closed, cold and unwelcoming. Most who visit there are completely turned off. Such was the case with these 5 families. I invited them all to my LCMS church at the time. Our congregation had a reputation of being exceedingly friendly. They practiced open communion so no one was excluded. I thought the LCMS church was the perfect solution for them...but not so. Of the 5 families, one found an ELCA church 40 minutes away, 3 joined one of the Methodist churches in town and one joined one of the bizillion Baptist churches.<br /><br />After a while I asked these folks why they didn't choose the LCMS church. One candidly admitted that her Iowa ELCA pastor told their family to go ANYWHERE rather than to an LCMS church. Two others said that the LCMS church wasn't out in the community doing service which was important to them.<br /><br />There must be something deeper in ELCA culture that keeps them from considering the LCMS. Oh sure...some do, but so many more do not. I suspect it has to do with a sense of "fundamentalism" they see in the LCMS and also a lack of social action. I think for the ELCAer social action is as much a part of the faith as anything.<br /><br />Just my observations. It is an interesting puzzle.Dixiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08511317203353075644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-76506291546152095612009-08-23T23:39:58.411-05:002009-08-23T23:39:58.411-05:00my wife and I were members of an ELCA congregation...my wife and I were members of an ELCA congregation, we new in 2005 that this vote was coming. We considered going to Rome until we found a confessional LC-MS congregation that changed our minds.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-41414870141527844752009-08-23T23:21:00.719-05:002009-08-23T23:21:00.719-05:00Too often we (LCMS) are quick to jump up on the &q...Too often we (LCMS) are quick to jump up on the "not-as-bad-as-them" pedestal. "Chief of Sinners though I be, the ELCA is worse than me!" Fr. Daniel's comment is well taken. How can we think our Synodical schisms - particularly regarding Liturgy as take it or leave it adiaphora - are any *better* than those of liberal Lutheran groups? Too often we fall into the trap of "God's gonna smite them for their sin, but at least it's not us!" Christ have mercy!Oruasehthttp://oruaseht.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-66910562247986452032009-08-23T21:05:08.407-05:002009-08-23T21:05:08.407-05:00Sorr-eeeee for the double post!
ChristineSorr-eeeee for the double post!<br /><br />ChristineAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-10856373170874042702009-08-23T21:02:03.273-05:002009-08-23T21:02:03.273-05:00Rome, even with its Vatican II issues, is not dist...<i>Rome, even with its Vatican II issues, is not distressed in the same way that the LCMS is.</i><br /><br />Kaleb, rest assured that Rome has plenty of distress these days. I wasted ten years in the RC after leaving the ELCA.<br /><br />Even with all the problems in the LCMS I am so glad to be here.<br /><br />ChristineAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-85714671211078634392009-08-23T21:01:47.039-05:002009-08-23T21:01:47.039-05:00Rome, even with its Vatican II issues, is not dist...<i>Rome, even with its Vatican II issues, is not distressed in the same way that the LCMS is.</i><br /><br />Kaleb, rest assured that Rome has plenty of distress these days. I wasted ten years in the RC after leaving the ELCA.<br /><br />Even with all the problems in the LCMS I am so glad to be here.<br /><br />ChristineAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com