tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post5719908158292384587..comments2024-03-24T05:54:23.612-05:00Comments on Weedon's Blog: Looking forward to the Reformation FestivalWilliam Weedonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comBlogger50125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-23125227724857326112007-10-24T21:06:00.000-05:002007-10-24T21:06:00.000-05:00By the way, Omar, Von Schenk's *The Presence* is p...By the way, Omar, Von Schenk's *The Presence* is pure gold on BOTH topics. It is absolutely uncanny for me to read this book. I'm finding expressed here with clarity and force much of what I've tried to teach and practice in my years of service to Christ's Church.William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-52120249919524405762007-10-24T21:04:00.000-05:002007-10-24T21:04:00.000-05:00Something titled Lutheranism and Stability (or som...Something titled Lutheranism and Stability (or some such). The basic thrust is that the loss of the stable liturgy has had huge adverse effects in Lutheranism, and perhaps explains the loss of mystical union as the very heart and center of Lutheran piety (which it once was, but sadly seems no longer to be). I'm all for recovering:<BR/><BR/>1. A stable Lutheran Liturgy<BR/>2. regular preaching and teaching on the mystical unionWilliam Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-57323271381310559312007-10-24T21:01:00.000-05:002007-10-24T21:01:00.000-05:00Rev. Weedon,Thanks for the explications to my ques...Rev. Weedon,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the explications to my questions and/or observations.<BR/><BR/>1a. <I>By the way, I believe that Lutheranism is the weaker for the way we've treated liturgy.</I><BR/><BR/>The thought was implicit in my inquiry. There is a kind of disconncect between what is believed -- a more mental exercise -- with what is practiced.I waited for the explanation before I said anything :-)<BR/><BR/>1b. Chris pointed out that the aphorism <I>lex orandi est lex credendi</I> implies that the fath is learned byparticipating in the liturgy. The question I have is to what extent, if any, does <I>lex orandi</I> always precede <I>lex credendi</I>? If changed belief, as you remarked in an earler post, effects a change in liturgy, how much of the <I>lex orandi</I> can be counted on the precede the <I>lex credendi</I> and thus guide our learning of the faith? <BR/> <BR/>2. <I>No, it's not strange. It is like a siren call.</I><BR/><BR/>LOL. Well, this must be quite a siren call for me. The local RC priest thought I was in seminary preparing for the RC priesthood when he first saw me and he still thinks I have priest written on me :-)<BR/><BR/>3.<I>My answer to the question was posted in my Scribblings on the website some time ago.</I><BR/><BR/>On the matter of Luther's undersanding of the canon of the Mass, under what title in the Scribblings did you post your thoughts?<BR/><BR/>Well, I've said enough. Das ist genug.<BR/><BR/>PaxUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02405412254216373202noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-62421617852104877162007-10-24T12:53:00.000-05:002007-10-24T12:53:00.000-05:00Chris,My answer to the question was posted in my S...Chris,<BR/><BR/>My answer to the question was posted in my Scribblings on the website some time ago. Luther made a category error in the liturgy. <BR/><BR/>Christine,<BR/><BR/>Every year when we recite the Athanasian Creed, folks stumble over the words: "they that have done good... they that have done evil..." They stumble because they know themselves to be those who have done evil and wonder if the Creed is thereby excluding them from heaven. The words, of course, are a very slight paraphrase of our Lord's words. And when we understand that the doing good is not the cause, but the result of salvation, and that they confirm faith, with our sins being forgiven, then we've explained the Creed's ending in a manner consistent with the testimony of Scripture.<BR/><BR/>I believe that Luther could have done a similar thing with the words of the canon. There are parts of the canon, though, that I think are sort of irredeemable. I think of the pleading of the saints merits! But as to whether they were part of the original Roman canon or not is a matter of some debate, no?William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-55649222446821088612007-10-24T10:30:00.000-05:002007-10-24T10:30:00.000-05:00Quicunque vult... “Whosoever will be saved, before...Quicunque vult...<BR/> <BR/>“Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith.” <BR/><BR/>So you find the Creed of Athanasius shocking, Pastor ? :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-25582113269316223712007-10-24T10:27:00.000-05:002007-10-24T10:27:00.000-05:00Fr Weedon,A very interesting question about Luther...Fr Weedon,<BR/><BR/><I>A very interesting question about Luther is to ask whether or not he really got the canon of the mass correct.</I><BR/><BR/>That certainly is a most interesting question; inquiring minds want to know what your answer to that question is.<BR/><BR/><I>Just as he retained without hesitation Quincunque Vult ... and taught its meaning in an evangelical way, could the same have been done for the canon itself?</I><BR/><BR/>It will not surprise you at all that my answer to this is "of course it could, and ought to have been." If, as you say, the liturgy is the Church's prayed confession, Luther ought to have been prepared to learn the faith from the liturgy, rather than to have altered the liturgy to conform to his theological stance. The aphorism is, after all, <I>lex orandi lex est credendi,</I> not <I>lex credendi lex est orandi.</I> <BR/><BR/>I acknowledge that you and I have disagreed on that point before and no doubt will continue to do so. And I do not mean that every word of the liturgy is perfect and inspired. But Luther and the Reformers went beyond changing a few words or sentences in the liturgy to remove manifestly false doctrine; they made a <I>structural</I> change to the liturgy, which is something that (I would argue) the Church has no right to do.Chris Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03220498656377282715noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-55242341638688651062007-10-23T20:18:00.000-05:002007-10-23T20:18:00.000-05:00By the way, I believe that Lutheranism is the weak...By the way, I believe that Lutheranism is the weaker for the way we've treated liturgy. Ratzinger (as he was called then) was bang on right when he observed that it would have been a different ball-game if Luther had put the liturgy into the same category as the Creeds: it is, after all, the Church's prayed confession. <BR/><BR/>Reed laments Luther's short-sightedness on this too. When you are convinced that the world's about to end, though, you just can't work yourself up to provide for the next generation, I suppose. <BR/><BR/>A very interesting question about Luther is to ask whether or not he really got the canon of the mass correct. He certainly shared what he was TAUGHT it meant - and that was horrible! But the real question is whether the canon itself actually SAYS what Luther's teachers taught him it meant. Just as he retained without hesitation Quincunque Volt with its shocking close (to evangelical ears) and taught it's meaning in an evangelical way, could the same have been done for the canon itself?William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-45183065580292489752007-10-23T20:13:00.000-05:002007-10-23T20:13:00.000-05:00Omar,1. No, it's not strange. It is like a siren...Omar,<BR/><BR/>1. No, it's not strange. It is like a siren call. Tie yourself to the cross as the place your salvation was surely won and do not be deterred by the sweet whisperings! "It is finished!"<BR/><BR/>2. Lutherans have a clear lex credendi in our Book of Concord. This is a normative expression of the faith for us. But there is not the corresponding normative expression of Lutheran liturgy. We are the inverse of the Anglicans in that regard. Lutherans strive for uniformity in doctrine and tolerance in ceremony. What is interesting is that at least at the time of the Reformation and for several centuries thereafter, Lutheran doctrine DID produce a quite identifiable Lutheran liturgy - there is a form of worship that simply is fitting and appropriate for what Lutheran doctrine confesses. But always the deterioration of Lutheran liturgy was a sign and symptom of the more serious rot: the deterioration of Lutheran doctrine. This happened in the time of Pietism and Rationalism, and I think it underlies the conflict in Lutheranism also today. When the doctrine goes south, no liturgy can shore it up.William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-63416126374670104952007-10-23T18:40:00.000-05:002007-10-23T18:40:00.000-05:00Fr. Weedon,1. I had an inkling that you might once...Fr. Weedon,<BR/><BR/>1. I had an inkling that you might once have seriously considered a swim across the Bosporus. Sometimes the bells and incense from the East wafts from your writing:-) Knowing these things about people further drives home the point that my own strong desire to the cross back over the Tiber-- I am orginally a cradle Roman Catholic -- is not something quite out of the ordinary...<BR/><BR/>2. Could you give a brief explication as to how Lutheranism as a clear <I>lex credendi</I> and a no (or perhaps, less clear) <I>lex orandi</I>?<BR/><BR/>Danke SchönUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02405412254216373202noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-64038334923674993422007-10-23T18:00:00.000-05:002007-10-23T18:00:00.000-05:00I hadn't heard the Fr. Petersen part of the story,...I hadn't heard the Fr. Petersen part of the story, which is interesting, since I heard the rumour at St. Michael's Conference! I gotta figure Deacon Muehlenbruch is involved in some way. Now that's a project I'm interested in!<BR/>Speaking of sticky tabs, I think I've seen plenty of them in the CTSFW chapel. . . .Brian P Westgatehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15383132438753364755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-475528199730104652007-10-23T16:48:00.000-05:002007-10-23T16:48:00.000-05:00As for the EO (and WO) involvement, well, I have m...As for the EO (and WO) involvement, well, I have many friends and some family who are Orthodox, and it is no secret to anyone that I seriously contemplated swimming the Bosporus myself. <BR/><BR/>Yes, Fr. Curtis is working on putting together a missal. Some project that he and Fr. Petersen have up their sleeve. Myself, I find the Altar Book for LSB to be quite manageable. It does the job that needs to be done in my opinion. It only needed two more ribbons, but I make up for that with the use of sticky tabs. :)William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-32924817091172622052007-10-23T14:28:00.000-05:002007-10-23T14:28:00.000-05:00Jen, I too am sometimes surprised by the Eastern i...Jen, I too am sometimes surprised by the Eastern involvement on this blog, but since Fr. Weedon doesn't seem to mind. . . .<BR/><BR/>WELS is not all hunky-dory. They aren't even all in agreement, since some have fallen for the church "growth" heresy. The biggest problem in WELS is their belief on church & ministry. We believe that Christ has given His Church an Office, a concrete one at that, which has duties. A man is placed into this office to preach and teach the Gospel and administer the Sacraments. WELS says that the Office is abstract, so that anything can become "gospel ministry." The loss of the article in such talk is a sign of false doctrine by the way. One tell-tale sign of their false doctrine is calling grade school teachers and college phy ed teachers "ministers of the gospel" even though they do none of the things Christ has given the Office to do.<BR/><BR/>Fr. Weedon, I've heard a rumour that Fr. Curtis is working on a Lutheran Missal. Is this true?Brian P Westgatehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15383132438753364755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-29205795831221095412007-10-23T09:20:00.000-05:002007-10-23T09:20:00.000-05:00I'm confused as to why so many Eastern Orthodox pe...<I>I'm confused as to why so many Eastern Orthodox people chime in or care.</I><BR/><BR/>Dear Jen,<BR/><BR/>Perhaps because of the goodness of our Lord we, His baptized children whether Lutheran, Orthodox, Roman Catholic or Anglican care enough about our Christian faith to take a stand and proclaim that yes, Jesus Christ is Lord in a world that more and more dismisses the Good News of the Gospel (as He warned us would happen).<BR/><BR/>For me, even when we sometimes squabble and disagree (as do all families), I am encouraged and heartened by the presence of so many brothers and sisters in Christ.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-64386886708431914422007-10-23T04:11:00.000-05:002007-10-23T04:11:00.000-05:00I have attended Reformation Day services in plenty...I have attended Reformation Day services in plenty of non-Lutheran settings. Even one liberal Baptist church used to observe the day. In my (limited) experience, many Protestants celebrate it.<BR/><BR/>AnastasiaAnastasia Theodoridishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16092531121989260111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-11309133606062929362007-10-22T20:59:00.000-05:002007-10-22T20:59:00.000-05:00Jen,Yup it has been published with both blue and r...Jen,<BR/><BR/>Yup it has been published with both blue and red covers, but it's the same book underneath.<BR/><BR/>I'd encourage you to check out LSB. It's a pretty neat book!<BR/><BR/>There are no petty questions, only petty questioners. You're not one of those! A question asked to learn and come to know more is always a GREAT question. Never be ashamed to ask it. <BR/><BR/>You, your hubby, and Natalie continue in my prayers, dear. God's peace to you all!William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-54413688218349943762007-10-22T20:49:00.000-05:002007-10-22T20:49:00.000-05:00Zion uses TLH (but blue, not red). Apparently this...Zion uses TLH (but blue, not red). Apparently this is the only Lutheran hymnal I've ever seen. I'm a very sheltered Lutheran. :/<BR/><BR/>I have a feeling that Pastor Loree isn't inclined to change the hymnal. He seems pretty happy with Zion, as is.<BR/><BR/>Maybe I'll buy myself a LSB. I wanted to go to a Lutheran bookstore today, but we ended up being at the hospital until after 1pm. Natalie had 2 appointments and I had to pick up a TON of Potassium Chloride. <BR/><BR/>Thanks for answering all my petty questions. They must seem so elementary compared to your other blog interactions. Bleh. I feel like a 5 year old. If you get bored, I have a question in Pastor McCain's blog that nobody will touch.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-33236959160816066662007-10-22T20:18:00.000-05:002007-10-22T20:18:00.000-05:00For example, the LSB Altar Book is 1004 pages!!! ...For example, the LSB Altar Book is 1004 pages!!! It's a HUGE monster up there on the altar, but it has in it everything that a pastor needs to conduct the Divine Service, or the prayer offices, in a congregation.William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-53425395357504063182007-10-22T20:16:00.000-05:002007-10-22T20:16:00.000-05:00Oh, also, what's in the front of the hymnal is as ...Oh, also, what's in the front of the hymnal is as much as the congregation needs to follow along in the worship. The altar book for either TLH (called The Lutheran Liturgy) or for LSB (Lutheran Service Book: Altar Book) contain the complete orders of service - everything except the hymns - that the pastors need to conduct the liturgy.William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-40080559826605726762007-10-22T20:15:00.000-05:002007-10-22T20:15:00.000-05:00That's the old hymnal of the LCMS, WELS, and ELS. ...That's the old hymnal of the LCMS, WELS, and ELS. It's the hymnal we used at St. Paul's until the publication of *Lutheran Service Book.* Other LCMS parishes adopted either *Lutheran Book of Worship* or *Lutheran Worship* back in the late 1970's and early 1980's. Thus, the sad situation arose in the LCMS where you had parishes that had TLH, parishes with LBW, and parishes with LW. Thanks be to God, it looks like the new LSB is at last unifying the Synod again into a single book - though it is a gradual process and parishes take their own sweet time in adopting it. The rate of adoption thus far, though, looks excellent and promising for the future.William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-29176266730253756262007-10-22T19:59:00.000-05:002007-10-22T19:59:00.000-05:00Yeah, I discovered there was no Missal, but isn't ...Yeah, I discovered there was no Missal, but isn't that what is in the front of a hymnal? <BR/><BR/>My husband has a red hymnal called "The Lutheran Hymnal" printed in 1941. Which one is this??Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-50990610545690747562007-10-22T19:45:00.000-05:002007-10-22T19:45:00.000-05:00Oh, and to borrow a page from the Orthodox, don't ...Oh, and to borrow a page from the Orthodox, don't try and sort it all out in your head. Go ahead and pray at Zion. Receive the gifts of Your Lord there. Living in the liturgy is the path to understanding it!William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-87457012118104272322007-10-22T19:43:00.000-05:002007-10-22T19:43:00.000-05:00Jen,The LCMS is called the LC Mess for a reason. ...Jen,<BR/><BR/>The LCMS is called the LC Mess for a reason. :) But when she's being true to herself, the LCMS doesn't want to talk about herself, but about our Lord, about what He has done and continues to do for His people. <BR/><BR/>There is no Lutheran Missal, but you will find that each of the jurisdictions in American Lutheranism has produced the book that sits upon the altar. There's one for WELS (Christian Worship); one for ELS (Evangelical Lutheran Hymnary); one for LCMS (Lutheran Service Book); and one for ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran Worship). I have all the books sitting on my shelf. There are differences, of course, but what is amazing is the underlying unity, especially between the first three. <BR/><BR/>Lutherans have always been messy about liturgy. The reason is we have a prescribed confession (lex credendi) but no prescribed liturgy (lex orandi). That lex credendi, though, does contain a basic approach that has guided Lutheran liturgy throughout the centuries. And that's why under the differences, you'll find huge basic agreement. <BR/><BR/>The existence of the Church Growth type of services in Lutheranism poses a challenge. We don't argue as Lutherans that they are sinful. But I would argue as a Lutheran that they are foolish; they depart from the received wisdom of our fathers for a novelty that people will soon enough tire of. The Lutheran liturgy, by contrast, for all its warts and blemishes, is sturdy Gospel-delivering and faithful. I think St. Justin (mid 200's) wandering into a service conducted from LSB would recognize exactly what was going on. I'm not sure he'd recognize what was up with the service of the Pentecostals - even when the name out front says Lutheran.William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-61034647030740323362007-10-22T19:24:00.000-05:002007-10-22T19:24:00.000-05:00Funny you should mention "missal". I googled "Luth...Funny you should mention "missal". I googled "Lutheran Missal" today to see if there was one. <BR/><BR/>It seems like there's far too much liberty in the LCMS. Then again, I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm confused by the disagreements I see amongst Lutheran pastors in these blogs. I'm confused as to why so many Eastern Orthodox people chime in or care. I'm confused as to why Pastor Loree gave me a copy of "Christian News" and it seems to display the same kinds of disagreements that I witness on the internet. It's like the LCMS is falling apart. What on earth is going on?<BR/><BR/>My husband tells me that WELS is much more consistent. <BR/><BR/>I have so much reading to do and I don't know where to start.<BR/><BR/>JenAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-16153392280042945622007-10-22T18:35:00.000-05:002007-10-22T18:35:00.000-05:00Brian,Aren't those red shoes unbelievably tacky???...Brian,<BR/><BR/>Aren't those red shoes unbelievably tacky???<BR/><BR/>Lord, have mercy!!!<BR/><BR/>But, Jenn, welcome to the liturgical battles among liturgical Lutherans. Just remember: what's the difference between a terrorist and liturgiologist? You can negotiate with a terrorist. ;)<BR/><BR/>Pax!William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-6453663193931404212007-10-22T18:29:00.000-05:002007-10-22T18:29:00.000-05:00Holy Father, if you have a red shoe, I might just ...Holy Father, if you have a red shoe, I might just have to kiss it next time you're in Fort Wayne. . . <BR/>Sorry I confused you Jen. It all is actually very confusing. That's what happens when the Western Rite traditions can't agree on anything after Pentecost. I blame the Roman Missal. . . .Brian P Westgatehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15383132438753364755noreply@blogger.com