tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post697469806358385641..comments2024-03-24T05:54:23.612-05:00Comments on Weedon's Blog: What is the Real Church?William Weedonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-31218055708905278772007-03-24T21:18:00.000-05:002007-03-24T21:18:00.000-05:00Pastor Weedon,Christopher's own words speak for th...Pastor Weedon,<BR/><BR/>Christopher's own words speak for themselves. It was he, not me, who spoke of "a serious error infecting Lutheranism." We become responsible for the truth we are given to see. <BR/><BR/>What you call a "clear implication" is certainly not clear to me, who spoke the words in question. The principle involved in both cases, P&F and E, is the same. Shall I compromise what I know to be the truth, or shall I suffer?<BR/><BR/>And you knew me well enough, once, to know I do not do "implications." I say what I mean, and I mean what I say. Can it be, perhaps, that you are doing a little eisegesis? <BR/><BR/>I cannot give Christopher a bad conscience; nor can I give one to you. I can only give myself a bad conscience, when I do not walk in the light I have been given. <BR/><BR/>The unworthy priest, and fool,<BR/><BR/>Fr. Gregory HoggAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-13284090666919375022007-03-24T20:37:00.000-05:002007-03-24T20:37:00.000-05:00Fr. Gregory,The clear implication is that to be or...Fr. Gregory,<BR/><BR/>The clear implication is that to be or remain a Lutheran is to be a compromiser of the divine truth - and to do so knowingly. But for a Lutheran the divine truth is known only from the Sacred Scriptures, and at no point does our Confession compromise that divine truth. Instead, at every point, it upholds it. And the confessors, of course, did make their confession at great cost indeed. May God grant me to be counted worthy to suffer like them for the truth of God's holy Word! <BR/><BR/>But to try to give Christopher a bad conscience for remaining with a Synod which seeks to uphold that confession - admittedly in great weakness and as a constant struggle - and above all to suggest that remaining in that Confession is akin to offering sacrifice to the emperor and denying the One who has purchased us with His blood... well, I just can't believe you think or say such things. <BR/><BR/>If you do think so honestly, then I pray that Christ would remind you of the faith you once espoused and the Gospel you taught among us so beautifully for so many years.William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-5885949532245146902007-03-24T20:20:00.000-05:002007-03-24T20:20:00.000-05:00Joel,Your query presupposes the visible/invisible ...Joel,<BR/>Your query presupposes the visible/invisible church distinction when you ask, "Where is the visible church where all the members have always intercommuned?"<BR/><BR/>WRT His Grace KALLISTOS' remark, it's precisely that breach in communion between the Patriarchate and ROCOR I was referring to as now being healed.<BR/><BR/>BTW, I had a great night last night. I got to hear a lecture by Bp. KALLISTOS, sat next to Fr. Tom Hopko, and shook hands with Troy Polamalu from the Steelers! It doesn't get much better than that...<BR/><BR/>Fr. GregoryAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-70453022081348684612007-03-24T20:14:00.000-05:002007-03-24T20:14:00.000-05:00Pastor Weedon,The circumstances faced by Perpetua ...Pastor Weedon,<BR/><BR/>The circumstances faced by Perpetua and Felicitas were different from those faced by St. Elisabeth; but the basic principle is the same. Shall I compromise what I know to be the truth, or shall I suffer?<BR/><BR/>The unworthy priest, and fool,<BR/><BR/>Fr. GregoryAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-55039469962465357562007-03-24T14:03:00.000-05:002007-03-24T14:03:00.000-05:00"It is better to have more than one bishop, all of..."It is better to have more than one bishop, all of whom confess the same faith and all of whose members intercommune"<BR/><BR/>Fr. Gregory, <BR/><BR/>It seems to me EO's have a tendency to idealize the Church such that she becomes indeed an invisible church and Platonic republic. Where is the visible church where all the members have always intercommuned? Remember when Rome was out of communion with Cyprian? The Meletian schism where Rome was out of communion with St Meletius while St Basil and other bishops were in communion with both Rome and Meletius? As I understand it, this situation dragged on for years. Timothy Ware admits in the 1997 edition of The Orthodox Church that "There are in fact certain breaches in communion, particularly among the Russian and Ukrainian Orthodox" (p.7).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-82287759756006222872007-03-24T08:03:00.000-05:002007-03-24T08:03:00.000-05:00Sts. Perpetua and Felicitas were given the choice ...Sts. Perpetua and Felicitas were given the choice of sacrificing to the emperor or dying for the Christ they confessed. St. Perpetua's father pleaded with her for the sake of her family *to sacrifice to the emperor*. Do you really mean to say, Father, that should Christopher remain a Lutheran, he would be DENYING the Christ confessed by Sts. Perpetua and Felicitas? Lord, have mercy! Perhaps, the example of St. Elizabeth the New Martyr fits a wee bit better the point you are seeking to make.William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-69503996632064471342007-03-24T07:48:00.000-05:002007-03-24T07:48:00.000-05:00Christopher,In no way would I make light of your s...Christopher,<BR/><BR/>In no way would I make light of your situation; nor do I fully know it.<BR/><BR/>We are damned by ourselves, and saved in community: this is true. But the community we are saved in is not father, mother, husband, wife, parents, or children. It is the Church. "Hearken, O daughter, and consider, and incline thine ear; forget also thine own people, and thy father's house; So shall the king greatly desire thy beauty: for he is thy Lord; and worship thou him." Such, after all, is the point of the story of Sts. Perpetua and Felicitas--and that of St. Elisabeth the New Martyr--is it not?<BR/><BR/>It is also true that we are born alone, and die alone; we believe for ourselves, and we are judged for ourselves. Who can be more wretched than me, who knows the truth and does not live it; who receives the dread mysteries, and offers them to others, but does not fear God or love my neighbor!<BR/><BR/>May the Lord Jesus be merciful to me, the sinner, on that dread Day!<BR/><BR/>The unworthy priest, and fool,<BR/><BR/>Fr. Gregory<BR/><BR/>PS--I know how to contact you by phone. I do not know your email address; if you'd like to send it to me via email (pastor_hogg@hotmail.com), that's ok by me.<BR/><BR/>PPS--It is better to have more than one bishop, all of whom confess the same faith and all of whose members intercommune, than it is to have no bishop, but rather a cacophony of clergy, few of whom say and do the same thing, and all of whom commune with those they disapprove of, and do not commune with those they agree with! And, as the recent experience of ROCOR and the Patriarchate of Moscow demonstrates, the Church's wounds are being healed by the grace of her Head. May we be found in her, and therefore in him whose body she is!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-43310073755695421262007-03-23T05:39:00.000-05:002007-03-23T05:39:00.000-05:00Rev. Weedon, You are right about the tone of Marqu...Rev. Weedon, <BR/><BR/>You are right about the tone of Marquhart's book. I will try to put that charitable interpretation upon it. It was one of the first books of heavy Lutheran theology I ever read. I can honestly say I had never heard anything like it before.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-65582858537081705972007-03-23T00:33:00.000-05:002007-03-23T00:33:00.000-05:00Chris, I get it that it's about doctrine. I see m...Chris, I get it that it's about doctrine. I see much too that I cannot support from Scripture, the Fathers or our Symbols. It may be that our lists of such things are somewhat different, but regardless, false doctrine is like true doctrine in that who shall hear it if it is not taught, and that means people. I would not presume to know exactly what constitutes "thus" in divided for you, however from context I will say I spent about twenty years being similarly divided, and it felt like all bloody hell. On the other hand, I do know who the bishop of Boston is!<BR/><BR/>I remember years ago walking past the LCMS parish in the Back Bay, thinking those would be my guys if I had guys.Past Elderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10541968132598367551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-82835013444986818362007-03-22T23:34:00.000-05:002007-03-22T23:34:00.000-05:00Past Elder,Fr Gregory is right: this has nothing ...Past Elder,<BR/><BR/>Fr Gregory is right: this has nothing to do with the individuals who make up any Lutheran Church body. It has to do with a false doctrine which is not taught by the Bible, the Fathers, or the Lutheran Symbols.<BR/><BR/>Fr Gregory,<BR/><BR/>You bid me come home, but in truth I never was fully "home", because I do not make this journey alone, and I ought not to have tried to do so. If you have never been thus divided, you cannot know what it was like.<BR/><BR/>More than that I will not say in a public forum. If you want to discuss it further, you know how to contact me. (If you figure out who the bishop of Boston is, perhaps you could have him give me a call.)Chris Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03220498656377282715noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-75569201041243277902007-03-22T22:59:00.000-05:002007-03-22T22:59:00.000-05:00Raise my rent. And who is it who has brought abou...Raise my rent. And who is it who has brought about the structural and doctrinal problems in contemporary Lutheranism but the relatives?<BR/><BR/>I've professed the Lutheran Faith -- having been to Rome literally and figuratively, with Constantinople right across the street literally and figuratively -- twice now, once in WELS and once in LCMS. Neither time did I profess faith in WELS, LCMS or any other trans parochial entity, or promise to spend a year working against tossing individual cups in the trash after Communion, but in the truths of Scripture as accurately taught particularly (being a layman) in The Little Catechism, and in something called the evangelical Lutheran church, which is not a denominational name any more than catholic, or one or holy or apostolic for that matter.<BR/><BR/>Good thing too. If I reserved joining based on structural and doctrinal concerns about practice, what I see around me, there isn't a church anywhere worth joining because they're all full of sinners like me whose real nature is in open revolt against God. Looks like we're back to the visible invisible thing again. Or better, borrowing again Pastor's distinction above, not taking things visible in the church as the church itself -- and when you don't do that, other things visible in the church that shouldn't be don't invalidate the church itself either.Past Elderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10541968132598367551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-31258642070898604322007-03-22T22:00:00.000-05:002007-03-22T22:00:00.000-05:00Dear Past Elder,If you read Christopher's post, he...Dear Past Elder,<BR/><BR/>If you read Christopher's post, he isn't raising concerns about some of the relatives. He's raising concerns of a structural and doctrinal nature about contemporary Lutheranism.<BR/><BR/>Lutheranism is full of wonderful, kind, generous people. The issue never was, and isn't now, the people.<BR/><BR/>The unworthy priest, and fool,<BR/><BR/>Fr. Gregory HoggAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-47218451241000708302007-03-22T21:05:00.000-05:002007-03-22T21:05:00.000-05:00Joel -- thanks for the affirmation. I'm 56. If I...Joel -- thanks for the affirmation. I'm 56. If I'm going to have a mid life crisis I'd sure as hell rather it be over a flashy sports car and a pretty young woman than Rome or Constantinople!<BR/><BR/>Chris -- you already are home! So am I. Like any family, who likes ALL their relatives? Sometimes I have to remind myself, thinking it's a bad church because of all the sinners and hypocrites in it islike thinking it's a bad hospital because there's so many sick people there.Past Elderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10541968132598367551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-72986704394380274582007-03-22T20:36:00.000-05:002007-03-22T20:36:00.000-05:00Dear Joel,I never had the privilege of meeting Pro...Dear Joel,<BR/><BR/>I never had the privilege of meeting Prof. Marquart, but I have heard consistently from those who have that he was a man both gentle, humble, and kind. I know that he doesn't come across that way at times in the book, but I assume that's just a flaw of the writing. It's easy to sound pompous when you are writing, when you are merely certain of God's promises. And I wonder if what is what you heard in his tone. <BR/><BR/>Pax!William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-13162545423516500292007-03-22T05:43:00.000-05:002007-03-22T05:43:00.000-05:00Past Elder's comments are worth heeding. Attractio...Past Elder's comments are worth heeding. Attraction to (or lust for) Rome or Constantinople can be a form of idolatry. Some men buy a flashy sports car in mid-life, some have a fling with a pretty young woman, some convert to one of the hypercatholic churches.<BR/><BR/>I had the misfortune to read Marquhart's book. Whatever the soundness of his theology, the book is shot through with an imperiousness of tone that is breathtaking. I found it unworthy of a fallible theologian of a fallible church.<BR/><BR/>Isn't the church's visible vs invisible distinction better and more Biblically expressed by our Lord's own called vs chosen distinction? That way we avoid any semblance of Platonism.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-13806274474677162112007-03-22T04:28:00.000-05:002007-03-22T04:28:00.000-05:00If the office of the ministry is essential, and no...If the office of the ministry is essential, and not accidental, in the Church; and if, in contemporary Lutheranism, the office of the ministry is not *practically* essential (for lay absolution and lay administration of the sacraments are tolerated, and if the ministry does not exist for the sake of giving the holy things to the holy ones, then what *is* it?)--then by your own words, Lutheranism is not Church. <BR/><BR/>Christopher, come home! Walk while you have the light.<BR/><BR/>The most unworthy priest, and fool,<BR/>Fr. GregoryAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-65112488966080134902007-03-22T00:17:00.000-05:002007-03-22T00:17:00.000-05:00Hi guys. I'd have jumped in earlier, but in catch...Hi guys. I'd have jumped in earlier, but in catching up I hit the words Sacrosanctum concilium and Lumen gentium and had to spend a little time over the toilet until sure I wouldn't barf.<BR/><BR/>It seems a lot of this is coming from the Laetare meditations from Walther's sermons in God Grant It, so hey, right after the part I shamelessly paraphrased above that Chris Jones quoted, Walther adds, Everything external either does not belong in this kingdom or is only a means that should work the change of heart by which a person is incorporated into this kingdom.<BR/><BR/>This ain't Plato and it ain't Buddhism either. Matter isn't an illusion or a veil here. Walther is in no way getting non sacramental or Pietistic. It's about the heart. And it's about not thinking that having the external means around that should work the change of heart mean that the heart is thereby changed. In RC language, pre Revolution, a sacrament was defined as an outward sign of an inward reality. It's about not mistaking all kinds of involvement in external means and outward signs for the inward reality itself. Or to borrow Pastor Weedon's excellent distinction, it's about not making things that are visible in the church for the church itself.<BR/><BR/>This is precisely what the Western Roman Church and the Eastern Orthodox have done, it is precisely what sad to say some of our liturgically minded Lutherans do and in some cases do so well that they embrace Rome or the East, and it is precisely in reaction to this that some, seeking a breath of fresh air or to breathe at all, seek to reinvent the church as Willow Creek Lutheran or Saddleback Catholic or leave altogether.<BR/><BR/>And how we children of Agar love that! Attempting to produce the inward reality without the outer signs or means Christ has established, or assuming the inward reality in nothing more than a preoccupation with the outer signs and means! Either way seizing Christ to make him king, and risking being told at the end of it, I never knew you.<BR/><BR/>Rather, let the King seize us in Word and Sacrament!Past Elderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10541968132598367551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-32751698120272323172007-03-21T22:23:00.000-05:002007-03-21T22:23:00.000-05:00Pr. Will,I do not see why there is opposition to W...Pr. Will,<BR/><BR/>I do not see why there is opposition to Walther here, may be I am just naive. I think Walther's point is fair enough. Also just reading it does not make me conclude that he denies the existence of the visible church. In fact the title is so appropriate "the Real Church". Real Church because you may be in the visibile church but not part of the invisible church, and the latter counts the most. Our evaluation of what is in people such as their faith is fallible and only Jesus knows his sheep.LPChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11352627830833515548noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-4636042959901576582007-03-21T20:53:00.000-05:002007-03-21T20:53:00.000-05:00No objection. Rather of a flavor with Becker's re...No objection. Rather of a flavor with Becker's reflection on Lumen Gentium's language that Christ's church "subsists in the catholic church" rather than IS the "Catholic church:: "Thus the Church of Christ can also be present outside the Catholic Church, and it is present, and indeed visible, in so far as factors and elements which create the Church are effective there." Quote again, thanks to Marquart.William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-76456076425839428752007-03-21T19:48:00.000-05:002007-03-21T19:48:00.000-05:00It might be interesting for you (but I know that i...It might be interesting for you (but I know that it will be little more than that) to know that Catholic Church, in insisting on the visible nature of the Church, does not deny the invisible also. Here is just a snippet from the 2nd Vatican Council (Sacrosanctum Concilium para. 2):<BR/><BR/>"The Church is essentially both human and divine, visible but endowed with invisible realities, zealous in action and dedicated to contemplation, present in the world, but as a pilgrim, so constituted that in her the human is directed toward and subordinated to the divine, the visible to the invisible, action to contemplation, and this present world to that city yet to come, the object of our quest [cf. Heb 13:14]."<BR/><BR/>Can't really argue with that, can you?Schützhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05026181010471282505noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-88334058991446876312007-03-21T14:12:00.000-05:002007-03-21T14:12:00.000-05:00Christopher,I think Walther would decline to recog...Christopher,<BR/><BR/>I think Walther would decline to recognize his teaching in how you are presenting it. He specifically opposed the notion that the Office of the Ministry was "accidental" and not essential - it was divinely mandated and instituted. But he does not regard the Office AS the Church but as something IN the Church. Similarly with the sacraments that the Office is called upon to administer for the Church's very life.<BR/><BR/>Walther does not hesitate to speak of the Church as "invisible" but I think we must beware of reading into that kind of lingo anything more the confession that at its core, the Church is that fellowship of faith and the Holy Spirit in the heart - a fellowship that is not possible apart from the divinely instituted Office of the Ministry administering the divinely instituted Sacraments in the midst of divinely instituted assemblies.William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-4108891814035153442007-03-21T09:56:00.000-05:002007-03-21T09:56:00.000-05:00Fr Weedon,If Walther had said not only an earthly,...Fr Weedon,<BR/><BR/>If Walther had said <I>not <B>only</B> an earthly, bodily, visible kingdom, but <B>also</B> an invisible, spiritual, heavenly one</I>, then I would be willing to agree with you. But he did not.<BR/><BR/>Walther's Church is a spiritual reality only, not a sacramental reality. If you say that the Church is <I>in essence</I> only spiritual, only invisible, then you are saying that what is visible about the Church -- her concrete, historical connection to the Apostles, her external, covenanted means of grace, her acting in the stead and by the command of the Saviour -- is accidental, not essential.<BR/><BR/>That may not be what you mean to say, but it is the clear implication of what Walther actually said, and it is what is involved in the false notion of the "invisible Church".<BR/><BR/>I am sorry if I am being difficult or obdurate here; but I sincerely believe that this is a serious error infecting Lutheranism.Chris Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03220498656377282715noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-6137103296007701302007-03-21T09:40:00.000-05:002007-03-21T09:40:00.000-05:00Chris,But Walther is not offering a spurious alter...Chris,<BR/><BR/>But Walther is not offering a spurious alternative here, for the Church precisely AS Church is not "an earthly, bodily, visible kingdom." Our Lord made that clear in saying that His kingdom is NOT of this world. <BR/><BR/>Her marks are audible and visible, but her very essence as "fellowship of faith and of the Holy Spirit in hearts" is not. WHERE she is, we can see. WHAT she is, well, "the Lord knows those who are His."<BR/><BR/>Pax!William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-48848754014307884832007-03-21T09:23:00.000-05:002007-03-21T09:23:00.000-05:00Of course it is not an either/or. I'm not denying...Of course it is not an either/or. I'm not denying that there is a heavenly (even a divine) and therefore invisible aspect to the reality that is the Church. It is Walther, not I, who is positing an either/or:<BR/><BR/><I>She is <B>not</B> an earthly, bodily, visible kingdom, <B>but</B> an invisible, spiritual, heavenly one.</I><BR/><BR/>This is the statement that is the "either/or", and it is simply wrong. It is not the teaching of the Bible, the apostolic tradition, or the Lutheran Confessions.Chris Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03220498656377282715noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-12322542259475955962007-03-21T08:10:00.000-05:002007-03-21T08:10:00.000-05:00Christopher,I think it is not an either/or. Walth...Christopher,<BR/><BR/>I think it is not an either/or. Walther here is being faithful to the Symbols in accenting (as the text he is preaching on) does the interior reality of the Church as the Spirit-wrought fellowship of faith in the heart. "Keeps it with Jesus Christ in the one true faith." Marquart in his outstanding book on the Church notes how the Church then has these two aspects that are inseparable: she is a hidden fellowship of faith in the heart and she is a public fellowship in the means of grace. The caveat of AC VIII is that she is the later even when those who use or administer do not share in the former. "In" the church, but not "of" the church. The Marquart book, if you've not had the joy, is really a delight. I think you'd find yourself rejoicing in much of what the good dr. had to say.William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.com