tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post7823925134570798980..comments2024-03-24T05:54:23.612-05:00Comments on Weedon's Blog: Sure Looks to BeWilliam Weedonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comBlogger37125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-60389969116322879922009-10-30T14:15:05.111-05:002009-10-30T14:15:05.111-05:00Well said, Larry. Thanks for your kind, constructi...Well said, Larry. Thanks for your kind, constructive and helpful remarks.Rev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-64171635846583277952009-10-29T22:26:48.949-05:002009-10-29T22:26:48.949-05:00Dear Rev. Weedon,
Learned teacher of Christ, I am...Dear Rev. Weedon,<br /><br />Learned teacher of Christ, I am new to this blog but know of you and Rev McCain and hold you both with high and warm regards. I am blessed the Lord has gathered my family and me to the hilltop, where we receive the means of grace: Word and Sacraments. Our parish is blessed with gifted musicians and an extraordinary gifted Kantor. However, I think music beit a recording of high quality has merits and may indeed be a blessing to a congregation. I spend many hours of wonderful conversation about living our Baptismal life with my sister Mary. She is part of a very small congregation that gathers about 50 worshipers, about 20 adults and not all employed. So money is an issue, buy an organ? Pay for a musician? Get serious, they can barely keep from muzzling the ox! The music differs there from week to week. The musicians are volunteers. If there is a musical instrument to be found, it could be from a personal guitar or electric keyboard and the songs are what the musician/parishioner is gifted enough to be able to play. This is where I think The Concordia Organist may prove to be an incredible unified resource and blessing. You make a good point; I will sure include rising up organists and other musicians when praying for workers in the Lord’s vineyard. Up to now, they have been only in my prayers of thanksgiving. I trust the Lord will answer our prayers as He deems best.<br /> <br />Thanks be to God for your faithfulness.Larry Ludernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-18605590802949970662009-10-27T09:39:02.203-05:002009-10-27T09:39:02.203-05:00@ Anonymous I'm sorry you are so angry and hos...@ Anonymous I'm sorry you are so angry and hostile and are hijacking this thread with your remarks. I do not think anonymous personal attacks are appropriate. If you have an issue with me, you can contact me directly and privately, and I won't divulge your identity.Rev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-28823291729012987442009-10-27T09:10:41.499-05:002009-10-27T09:10:41.499-05:00Pr. Lorfeld, thanks for your comments. Your situat...Pr. Lorfeld, thanks for your comments. Your situation is by no means unique. There are many congregations struggling to find anyone competent enough to provide musical accompaniment in a congregation's worship service. <br /><br />We pray that TCO will be a help in such situations.Rev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-78898114177077342322009-10-27T06:44:37.414-05:002009-10-27T06:44:37.414-05:00Paul, It is quite clear to me that you hi-jacked t...Paul, It is quite clear to me that you hi-jacked this thread with the sole purpose of attacking Phillip Magness. I do not feel the need to address you as Pastor McCain, because you are not my Pastor nor are you acting in a pastoral manner.<br /><br />I have known Phillip for many years and I have a deep admiration and respect for him. He has faithfully served the LCMS for many years. <br /><br />This isn't your blog or your post and yet you come in "here" and verbally attack someone who was offering their opinion and their concerns. It is one thing to disagree with someone but you immediately went on the attack against Phillip.<br /><br />You wave your Pastoral title around like it is some sort of badge of honor and demand we address you as Pastor. You may have earned the right to be called a Pastor at the Seminary, but that doesn't give you the right to come and attack someone who was sharing their opinion. You didn't just attack his ideas you attacked him personally. <br /><br />From your sarcastic "Solutions" comment you clearly know a lot about Phillip. I would suggest that if you have a problem with him personally you take it off-line and deal with it in a Christian manner.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-72735455344992612192009-10-26T21:52:03.799-05:002009-10-26T21:52:03.799-05:00I would prefer that we sing without accompaniment ...I would prefer that we sing without accompaniment than a CD (but TCO may still be helpful just to make sure I have the right hymn tune, or to practice it as a congregation). We struggle to find a piano player. Thankfully the organist from across The River pulls double duty with us. However, we'd love to be able to find someone to play for us, unfortunately this is easier said than done.mlorfeldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03138561905418684851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-29131243473119106722009-10-26T19:39:41.760-05:002009-10-26T19:39:41.760-05:00::smooch:: Love you, too, dear Cheryl.
(That'...::smooch:: Love you, too, dear Cheryl.<br /><br />(That's just to gross out the men.)Elephantschildhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14610471467736150461noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-23050560629216738852009-10-26T19:11:15.523-05:002009-10-26T19:11:15.523-05:00Pastor McCain, feel free to call me Cheryl. It'...Pastor McCain, feel free to call me Cheryl. It's a lot easier to type than Mrs. Magness, and it makes me feel younger. :-)<br /><br />EC, I too appreciate your comments here. We may not see entirely eye to eye on this issue, but that's okay. I think it's nice that we are able to disagree in a reasoned, unemotional way, especially since you are one of my dearest friends in the whole wide world!Cherylhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04817680463922038375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-76586120487009491352009-10-26T18:37:12.353-05:002009-10-26T18:37:12.353-05:00Mrs. Magness, The Concordia Organist is designed p...Mrs. Magness, The Concordia Organist is designed primarily for congregations to use in their total ministry, which includes more than the Sunday morning worship service.<br /><br />As I've said, we've but only begun to realize the possibilities that TCO offers a congregation and its pastor(s) and others.<br /><br />Fear is never a good way to approach these issues.Rev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-12626387767925561322009-10-26T18:35:20.976-05:002009-10-26T18:35:20.976-05:00Elephant's Child, again, well said.
If we th...Elephant's Child, again, well said.<br /><br /> If we think that encouraging congregations to not use organ music unless/until they have a live organist is going to preserve the King of Instruments in the living memory of our congregations, well...I'd say your hubby better be very concerned, indeed.Rev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-78163915393171399012009-10-26T18:09:01.042-05:002009-10-26T18:09:01.042-05:00BTW, I should have clarified that I've got a d...BTW, I should have clarified that I've got a dog in this fight. My husband's livelihood is dependent on churches continuing to repair, rebuild and replace their real live pipe organs. <br /><br />So, I'm hardly going to be touting the Concordia Organist as the best thing since sliced bread. But I do, sadly, and with regret, see a need for it in some situations.Elephantschildhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14610471467736150461noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-65954405458855236902009-10-26T17:23:04.812-05:002009-10-26T17:23:04.812-05:00"Consider carefully what Pastor Weedon writes..."Consider carefully what Pastor Weedon writes about how hard a time they have had acquiring an organist, for six months!"<br /><br />I don't dispute the fact that good organists are hard to come by. But I wonder how often, when an organist is not available, an effort is even made to find some other way of leading congregational singing before throwing in the towel. As my husband suggested earlier in this thread, perhaps this is an opportunity to bring in a singer or group of singers or pianist or group of pianists or flautist or violinist or WHO KNOWS WHAT? But how often is this even tried? I love the organ. But it is not the only way to lead congregational singing.Cherylhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04817680463922038375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-4973977378198667882009-10-26T17:11:43.511-05:002009-10-26T17:11:43.511-05:00"Imagine the possibilities of its use in home..."Imagine the possibilities of its use in homes, in nursing homes, for private devotion and meditation, and so forth."<br /><br />It's a lovely thought. I would love to have a home copy of The Concordia Organist. But at $699 I don't think it's in the cards for me or most people, which suggests to me that is not the primary reason for which it was created. Its primary purpose is to take the place of a human organist in the worship service, and that is the issue at hand here.Cherylhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04817680463922038375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-28130453627628663022009-10-26T16:32:57.966-05:002009-10-26T16:32:57.966-05:00I really wish a that Pastor McCain could have show...I really wish a that Pastor McCain could have shown some sanctified restraint and not have overreacted to Mr. Magness's comments. It was particularly ugly to see the Publisher of CPH beat up on both Magness AND his wife, and then turn clerical and insist on being called "Pastor." This helps no one. Kyrie eleison.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-31668938794475450092009-10-26T15:43:30.977-05:002009-10-26T15:43:30.977-05:00One more point to be made.
Consider carefully wha...One more point to be made.<br /><br />Consider carefully what Pastor Weedon writes about how hard a time they have had acquiring an organist, for six months!<br /><br />Then consider how [relatively speaking] Rev. Weedon's congregation is to a major metropolitan area with a population of over one million people.<br /><br />Consider then what conditions are like in the true hinterlands of our Synod.Rev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-67410807843229706322009-10-26T15:42:11.394-05:002009-10-26T15:42:11.394-05:00All I can say if you folks could hear what we'...All I can say if you folks could hear what we've heard from pastors and congregations that are literally off in the middle of nowhere, in the "boonies" beyond belief and how horribly difficult it is to find anyone who can play an organ, and how desperately they want once again to hear the "King of Instruments" you would be able better to understand the "why" of <i>The Concordia Organist</i>.<br /><br />While I certainly share the concerns expressed by Mrs. Magness, I do not regard the advent of <i>The Concordia Organist</i> in apocalyptic terms as she does, and certainly can not agree with the sneering derision her husband feels it necessary to heap on the project and on CPH for undertaking it.<br /><br />I also think that people have just barely begun to consider how many uses there are for TCO. Its use in a congregation that has no organist or musicians is but one of any number of potential uses. Imagine the possibilities of its use in homes, in nursing homes, for private devotion and meditation, and so forth.<br /><br />In fact, I would argue that keeping beautiful organ music alive by at least being able to offer it will help support its continued use in our church body, rather than further erode its use.<br /><br />We pray it enriches the worship life of the people of God in The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod and is used to enhance and strengthen our love for quality church music.<br /><br />Simply put, if the people never are able to hear such beautiful music, there is little chance they will want to hear it.<br /><br />And let me simply say this, if in fact Rev. Dr. Paul Grime, Rev. Kantor Richard Resch and Mr. Kevin Hildebrand views <i>The Concordia Organist</i> with the kind of "dread alarm" that some have expressed in this thread, they would have been the first to refuse to be involved in the project, but in fact, this effort was long planned in the development of <i>Lutheran Service Book</i> and the result of their many hours of labor in the chapel at CTS recording all this music is nothing short of stunning.Rev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-39492026406638873422009-10-26T15:08:31.567-05:002009-10-26T15:08:31.567-05:00"Mr. Magness, it is Pastor McCain to you, not..."Mr. Magness, it is Pastor McCain to you, not Paul."<br /><br />Lighten up, Paul.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-32896475040360787732009-10-26T15:08:03.066-05:002009-10-26T15:08:03.066-05:00I'll just give my own take on the question aft...I'll just give my own take on the question after mulling it over a bit here and reading the back and forth - YMMV.<br /><br />I haven't allowed pre-recorded music in our church. The reason is simple: music is part of the offering of the people gathered there. What right have we to offer another's music in that place? We offer our own. <br /><br />That's the argument that I've used to forbid the use of canned music at weddings and such. <br /><br />Perhaps my thinking on the question is too narrow minded; but the integrity of the offering seems to be compromised by the use of someone else's music. Still I can see the huge, crying need. After trying to FIND organists for six months of organist vacancy, I can really see the need! But I'm just not sure that this is the way to go ultimately...William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-18100242846851369432009-10-26T14:58:40.357-05:002009-10-26T14:58:40.357-05:00You know, maybe I would be less wary of a resource...You know, maybe I would be less wary of a resource like Concordia Organist if I thought we in the LCMS were already doing everything in our power to grow the next generation of parish musicians and to nourish solid liturgical practice in our parishes today. But we're not. There are small, struggling parishes all over the place--struggling musically and otherwise--and they aren't being helped unless they pass the Ablaze test. And there is so much more we could do to enable and nurture the song of people who want to sing beyond giving them a track to sing along with. Why not put some synodical dollars behind sending the best musicians in our synod out to small congregations to see the need and to help find ways within that community of meeting the need? It's hard to talk about these things in a way that makes sense. A few weeks of Kevin Hildebrand or Paul Grime or Phillip Magness studying and working with and showing how it can be done would result in a congregation's learning to use its own voice rather than simply pushing the play button on a pre-fab one-size-fits-all product that is oblivious to the voices singing along with it. If a congregation wants to sing, it will sing. If it doesn't want to sing, I don't hold out a lot of hope for the Concordia Organist getting it to do so.<br /><br />I fear that this resource, coming as it does from our own ranks, will be a way for those in our synod who don't much care for confessional worship practice to say, "There, we took care of the traditionalists. Gave them some organ on tape. We can check that off our list and move on now." And the more congregations resort to this type of resource the less the need will be felt to grow future musicians. And the more likely potential music leaders in a congregation or community's midst will simply be overlooked. And that makes me very, very sad.Cherylhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04817680463922038375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-43395700187491283672009-10-26T13:34:18.547-05:002009-10-26T13:34:18.547-05:00Well said, Elephant's Child.Well said, Elephant's Child.Rev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-78400242810874852652009-10-26T12:09:08.669-05:002009-10-26T12:09:08.669-05:00I think the the truth of the matter is somewhere i...I think the the truth of the matter is somewhere in the middle. <br /><br />No full time Cantor at a large congregation is going to be fired over the availability of these CDs. And truth be told, churches that are inclined to go the Lutheran Karaoke route already have at their disposal any number of MIDI files and recordings produced by other denominational entities, some of it for free. Even more, any congregation can fit their organs with MIDI so that at it can play MIDI files downloaded from the internet. <br /><br />That being said, I certainly do understand the problem of these CDs as outlined by Cantor Magness. I like his alternative ideas. We could use a whole book of ideas like that, widely available. (Get busy writing, Cantor!) They are certainly preferable, when possible, to CDs. As Dan @ NR said above, a CD cannot adjust for the congregation like a live musician can. <br /><br />I do think, however, there are situations where the CDs can be a stop-gap measure, as Pr. Rowold demonstrates. <br /><br />Another example: I'd rather attend a wedding with canned music from the Concordia Organist than canned music from the $4.99 "Best Bride's Hits" CD at Barnes and Noble. <br /><br />Would I prefer a real live organist? Absolutely. But the CD from CPH is the lesser of two rotten alternatives.Elephantschildhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14610471467736150461noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-6430898936475167822009-10-26T11:48:23.893-05:002009-10-26T11:48:23.893-05:00Pastor McCain, what congregation are you the Pasto...Pastor McCain, what congregation are you the Pastor of again?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05805071098838461003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-59334071038961822352009-10-26T11:25:23.148-05:002009-10-26T11:25:23.148-05:00"I'm sorry you continue to feel a need to..."I'm sorry you continue to feel a need to express your opinions in such inflammatory and needlessly hostile fashion.<br /><br />It's hard to hear you over all the noise."<br /><br />Again, Pastor McCain, with all due respect, this is truly stunning coming from you. All my husband did was to share his opinion on Pastor Weedon's blog post. YOU are the one who--rather than discussing the question at hand--decided to make this personal. Pastor Weedon, I am sorry your blog has been hijacked in this way. But I have to point out one more time that all my husband did was to express his opinion on the Concordia Organist and the potential unintended consequences of it. His comment had nothing to do with Pastor McCain, but Pastor McCain seems to have taken personal offense at it, as if it were directed at him. So his first comment in this thread does not focus on the subject at hand--the merits or lack thereof of using the Concordia Organist--but on my husband. He makes a pronouncement about my husband--"It is difficult for Mr. Magness to know . . . " instead of sticking to the issue at hand. Pastor McCain has no way of knowing what it is difficult for my husband to know or not to know. It is interesting that Pastor McCain patronizes me with the statement that it is understandable that I would want to "defend" my husband. For the record, that is not what I was doing (although I supposed I am doing it now!). But I am also a church musician and I was weighing in with my own opinion on this issue. But isn't it interesting that Pastor McCain sees a need for me to defend my husband? Is that because he knows that what he was doing was not engaging the issue at hand but instead issuing an ad hominem attack?<br /><br />I can't help but notice that in all of Pastor McCain's subsequent remarks on this thread he can't seem to get away from making my husband the issue. If you read my husband's posts you will see that he is trafficking in ideas and specifics. You can disagree with him if you want, challenge him, ask questions. But you can't deny that he is engaging the issue and offering suggestions and support for his opinion. But Pastor McCain seems only able to come back with further personal comments rather than discussion of the resource and related issues that this blog post and thread are supposedly about.<br /><br />Anyone who takes the time to read back over this thread will see that the only hostility is that which flows from Pastor McCain to my husband. It is unfortunate that Pastor McCain's apparent antipathy for my husband prevents him from being able to have a reasonable discussion about such an important issue.Cherylhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04817680463922038375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-87659929556662340482009-10-26T10:22:17.596-05:002009-10-26T10:22:17.596-05:00Mr. Magness, it is Pastor McCain to you, not Paul....Mr. Magness, it is Pastor McCain to you, not Paul.<br /><br />I'm sorry you continue to feel a need to express your opinions in such inflammatory and needlessly hostile fashion.<br /><br />It's hard to hear you over all the noise.Rev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7291232.post-68397928752941023822009-10-25T20:56:13.123-05:002009-10-25T20:56:13.123-05:00Yes, Paul, that's exactly what I'm saying!...Yes, Paul, that's exactly what I'm saying! As you wrote, my comments come across as sounding to you like I'm saying: <br /><br />"If you don't have a real organist, just forget using organ music in your worship service."<br /><br />Organ music is not essential to Lutheran worship. I'm surprised I'm having to make this point. <br /><br />As far as my comments being offensive, Paul, I think you protest too much. <br /><br />Hopefully we'll have a change in direction in our synod and it won't get to that, but the way things are going, I will not be at all surprised if we get "The Concordia Preacher" in 5-10 years. We already have congregations meeting under SMP pastors watching their senior pastor on video. <br /><br />Digitized pastoral "experiences" are the next logical step - and, yes, CPH will dutifully provide them, as directed by Synod, Inc. <br /><br />And people like me who think folks should just worship like Lutherans have for almost 500 years (real pastors, live music - or no music, if need be) will again be told that "we just don't understand". <br /><br />But those who seek to worship authentically will sing the songs they know a cappella, or with a guitar or a piano or a flute. They may just pray the Cancticles by speaking them - they are prayers, after all. And, in doing so, they will be focusing on what really needs to take place: the proclamation of God's Word, the hearing of God's Word, the praying of God's Word. <br /><br />To be sure, this will also where "Concordia Organist" (i.e. Lutheran Karaoke) will be taking place, as the Spirit will continue to call, gather, and enlighten. God takes care of His church, and the Spirit will prevail as He wills. <br /><br />But many singing along with "Concordia Karaoke" will be deceived into believing that organ music is some sort of holy sound we must have to worship as Lutheran Christians. <br /><br />That, Paul, is truly offensive.Philliphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13715953453920138624noreply@blogger.com