I am trying not to be obnoxious, and grouchy, but this list of 95 New Theses is completely ineffectual because the author did not sign it! Until a name goes on it, it is just a bit of boyish snickering and dreaming.
Put some names on it, however--and the name of the author--then you may have something.
Bill, if you know the author, please encourage him to find some courage and sign it.
Then you can talk about getting a hammer and some nails.
Having put a name would lend more credence but at the same time aren't names being put on it when those of us not blogging under pseudo-names post links to it on our blogs? One wouldn't link if they're not in agreement with it correct?
Why would people want to stay in a church body that they fear?
The LCMS is not the church. Leaving the LCMS is not leaving the church. So why would someone stay in such a group?
What's the worst these vicious people could do? Throw men and congregations out of the synod? If that's the worst that can happen, what are people afraid of?
Matt. 10.26-31: "Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known. What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops. And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows."
Post the list on the free petition site... make a "petition" of it... like the Issues, Etc petition... and let anyone who agrees with it or wants to ... sign it... their signatures on it... can be their "nails".
Post the list on the free petition site... make a "petition" of it... like the Issues, Etc petition... and let anyone who agrees with it or wants to ... sign it... their signatures on it... can be their "nails".
Now there's an interesting suggestion! The question is, who would be first to sign?
In my opinion, the argumentum ad anonymous is really an ad hominem. Either a thing is true or it isn't. E still equals MC2 even if Einstein declined to put his name on it.
I always get a charge out of calls to courage from the bleacher seats. Like layman telling pastors of other congregations to "stand up and be counted." There were people casting aspersions against pastors or profs who didn't sign the Issues, Etc. petition
Guys like Weedon, Asbury, and me hang it out there in the blogosphere for everyone to read, amassing enough evidence to hang us ten times over, and then get drilled in the comment field by people who have nothing to lose. Nice.
"6. Relevance, self-help and pop-psychology have no power to work true contrition over sins and faith in Jesus Christ."
Here's the irony regarding the pop-culture churches. All those people who abandon the Gospel to preach self help and relevance are actually becoming less relevant. After all, every single person who has ever lived has died because of sin. It's relevant to everyone everywhere to remember that one of those people died for their sin, and not his own. This is our best argument against those who would change the LCMS into such a church. Who needs to worry about their best life now when their life is over?
May God especially bless pastors "Weedon, Asbury, and Cwirla who hang it out there in the blogosphere" You guys are truly priceless and most appreciated.
If anyone tries to cause problems for ya'll, I can only suppose that the rabble-rousing peasants might revolt big time and I'm sure these same peasants would be happy to start a fund for ya'll and hopefully we would not try to lynch them instead? :)
As for the peition... I think there may be a few of us who would fight to put our names first on the list? :)
Anyway, I'm sorry if us rabble-rousers have caused grief. Please forgive us for the times we are thoughtless and hopelessly stupid.
Rev Cwirla said, "I always get a charge out of calls to courage from the bleacher seats. Like layman telling pastors of other congregations to 'stand up and be counted.'"
FYI: I was the first one here and on other blogs to ask for the author to sign it. And as you can see from above (and from my incredibly life-like Simpson's style photo), I'm not anonymous or pseudonymous. And I, too, have blogged about this controversy, been linked here (thanks for that "bump", Bill), and stick my neck out as well.
Sure, you may find 1000 people to sign it, but if the man who wrote it does not take credit for it, I believe it undermines the whole thing. It is not an ad anonymity nor an ad hominem. It's a simple matter of integrity, courage, and honesty.
I'm not sure who you think is "drilling you" in the comment field, unless you wrote it. If so, then, yes, consider yourself drilled and please sign it! :)
Jim Huffman is right on. What can man do to me/you/us?
"Out of love for the truth and the desire to bring it to light, the following propositions will be discussed at Wittenberg, under the presidency of the Reverend Father Martin Luther, Master of Arts and of Sacred Theology, and Lecturer in Ordinary on the same at that place. Wherefore he requests that those who are unable to be present and debate orally with us, may do so by letter."
It's noteworthy that Luther signed his name to his theses. And, as I pointed out on my blog, those who think an issue is fundamentally *theological*--a matter of the truth--have no hesitation to die, if necessary, for the confession of the truth. Those who think that an issue is fundamentally *corporate*--a matter of opinion--do hesitate.
It's been some years since I sang it, but I remember the words: "So take they then our life; goods, fame, child and wife. Let these all be gone; they yet have nothing won. The Kingdom ours remaineth."
No one is saying that risking one's job is an easy matter. But if the "Issue" is truth, well, what choice does one have?
You make a very good point. I commended Rev. Asburry for his boldness in the faith on his blog and I want to do the same for you and Rev. Weedon. I also commend Rev. Wilken, Rev. Rossow, Rev. Brondos and other Confessional leaders in the LCMS who I am not yet aware of. I am also thankful for all the faithful pastors behind the scenes who are not as public. You all have been given wonderful gifts by Jesus and have been faithful in using them in His service by His grace and mercy.
I am not a pastor and so I have to agree that I have lot less to lose than you guys, but I want to support you in any way I can and I pray that many other laymen will do the same. I am encouraged by laymen like Jeff Schwarz, Mollie and others who have worked so hard to help pastors like you.
I wish I could have written the new 95, and I would be happy to be the first to sign it. I wouldn't blame any Pastor's for not signing it if that is what is necessary to keep them safe so they can keep proclaiming Christ and Him crucified.
Keep up the good fight and don't get too discouraged or aggravated. You are in Jesus. He is with you and a lot of us laymen are with you and we will be praying for you and supporting you in the days ahead.
Pastor Cwirla et al are right on. The new 95 are sound, Biblical, and right on! What we lack in any single signer's name, we have in support. The evidence is in the blogging, which is untarnished by beaurocratic pseudoresponses.
The fact that the 95 cover such a wide range of topics shows the willingness of truly Confessional Lutherans to stand firm against a whole host of errors. It's not merely for some power trip or hurt feelings' sake we take our stand. Folks, we express the concern that people hear, believe, teach, and confess clearly what Scripture and the Confessions declare.
None of us here wish to see our brothers and sisters swayed by purpose-driven error. None of us here wish to see folks come to the Lor's Supper undiscerning. None of us here want to see the new indulgences (self-help books peddled around with crowds of buyers in tow.
Rather, we have the call, whatever our vocation may be, to diligently study to show our selves approved, rightly handling the Word of truth. We stand firm not in our own glory but in the grace of God freely given.
I would most certainly sign if a petition were to be attached to the new 95. To whoever penned them, thank you for so articulately showing the proper use of FC EP X 5ff!
"Why would people want to stay in a church body that they fear?" Why do prostitutes stick to pimps that they fear? Why do neighborhoods pay protection money to gangs? They've got you tied up with things like discounts on insurance premiums and things. By the way, as one who's anguished against PLI'ers and JF'ers, here's a few mantras that they use besides 40 Days of Purpose (that's old now): (1) They like quoting the 4th Commandment way out of context. (2) Their lay-supporters like to justify things with "We believe, teach, and confess..." again out of context. (3) They like to "Connect People to Jesus." When they've dismissed Word and Sacrament, who they actually connect you to is up for debate. (4) They want you to be "contagious Christians." By the way, none of these slogans is original. They come from places like Willowcreeps, I mean, Willowcreek. (5) People like CNH District President Newton will say "We want more laypeople involved. No layperson gets involved without being trained. No layperson gets trained without my approval." (6) They also say stuff like "Pastors are to be accountable to nobody but me." geesh. What happened to the Scriptures and the Confessions to which they pledged themselves? more later. Anonymous this time. Out of fear? I'm not sure, just wary of how much trouble I stir at any one moment. They know me as a trouble-maker you know...
Maybe they like to use the 4th commandment as some kind of sick justification of a papacy? -just a thought. Note how the Council of Presidents was impotent as to what they could do about the Issues, Etc mess.
Friend, I don't disagree with you about the causes related to insurance and such, though I Timothy 6.10 is always pertinent when discussing such. In another context, I've said that the synod is held together by a pension plan and the vague idea of "being LCMS." But I just re-state my earlier question, and expand it a bit, wondering where the LCMS has come to that we compare ourselves to prostitutes and synodical officials to pimps?
These are sound. If I'm not mistaken, some are actually Luther's.
ReplyDeleteYou bring the nails, Weedon, and I'll bring the hammer.
We could even sing: "If I had a hammer..."
ReplyDeleteI am trying not to be obnoxious, and grouchy, but this list of 95 New Theses is completely ineffectual because the author did not sign it! Until a name goes on it, it is just a bit of boyish snickering and dreaming.
ReplyDeletePut some names on it, however--and the name of the author--then you may have something.
Bill, if you know the author, please encourage him to find some courage and sign it.
Then you can talk about getting a hammer and some nails.
Thanks!
I don't know the author (or if he did write to me, I've forgotten who it was!), Christopher, but I agree with you. It would be stronger with a name.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Pr. Hall (and Pr. Weedon), a name attached would make it more efficacious. C. Hoff
ReplyDeleteIt may be that they fear retribution if they are members of synod. That is what they more or less say here:
ReplyDeletehttp://adelphoitouchristou.typepad.com/savethelcms/why-are-we-using-pseudona.html
Having put a name would lend more credence but at the same time aren't names being put on it when those of us not blogging under pseudo-names post links to it on our blogs? One wouldn't link if they're not in agreement with it correct?
ReplyDeleteWhy would people want to stay in a church body that they fear?
ReplyDeleteThe LCMS is not the church. Leaving the LCMS is not leaving the church. So why would someone stay in such a group?
What's the worst these vicious people could do? Throw men and congregations out of the synod? If that's the worst that can happen, what are people afraid of?
Matt. 10.26-31: "Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known. What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops. And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows."
Post the list on the free petition site... make a "petition" of it... like the Issues, Etc petition... and let anyone who agrees with it or wants to ... sign it... their signatures on it... can be their "nails".
ReplyDeleteI will sign it : )
Matt B.
Post the list on the free petition site... make a "petition" of it... like the Issues, Etc petition... and let anyone who agrees with it or wants to ... sign it... their signatures on it... can be their "nails".
ReplyDeleteNow there's an interesting suggestion! The question is, who would be first to sign?
In my opinion, the argumentum ad anonymous is really an ad hominem. Either a thing is true or it isn't. E still equals MC2 even if Einstein declined to put his name on it.
I always get a charge out of calls to courage from the bleacher seats. Like layman telling pastors of other congregations to "stand up and be counted." There were people casting aspersions against pastors or profs who didn't sign the Issues, Etc. petition
Guys like Weedon, Asbury, and me hang it out there in the blogosphere for everyone to read, amassing enough evidence to hang us ten times over, and then get drilled in the comment field by people who have nothing to lose. Nice.
"6. Relevance, self-help and pop-psychology have no power to work true contrition over sins and faith in Jesus Christ."
ReplyDeleteHere's the irony regarding the pop-culture churches. All those people who abandon the Gospel to preach self help and relevance are actually becoming less relevant. After all, every single person who has ever lived has died because of sin. It's relevant to everyone everywhere to remember that one of those people died for their sin, and not his own. This is our best argument against those who would change the LCMS into such a church. Who needs to worry about their best life now when their life is over?
May God especially bless pastors "Weedon, Asbury, and Cwirla who hang it out there in the blogosphere" You guys are truly priceless and most appreciated.
ReplyDeleteIf anyone tries to cause problems for ya'll, I can only suppose that the rabble-rousing peasants might revolt big time and I'm sure these same peasants would be happy to start a fund for ya'll and hopefully we would not try to lynch them instead? :)
As for the peition... I think there may be a few of us who would fight to put our names first on the list? :)
Anyway, I'm sorry if us rabble-rousers have caused grief. Please forgive us for the times we are thoughtless and hopelessly stupid.
Rev Cwirla said, "I always get a charge out of calls to courage from the bleacher seats. Like layman telling pastors of other congregations to 'stand up and be counted.'"
ReplyDeleteFYI: I was the first one here and on other blogs to ask for the author to sign it. And as you can see from above (and from my incredibly life-like Simpson's style photo), I'm not anonymous or pseudonymous. And I, too, have blogged about this controversy, been linked here (thanks for that "bump", Bill), and stick my neck out as well.
Sure, you may find 1000 people to sign it, but if the man who wrote it does not take credit for it, I believe it undermines the whole thing. It is not an ad anonymity nor an ad hominem. It's a simple matter of integrity, courage, and honesty.
I'm not sure who you think is "drilling you" in the comment field, unless you wrote it. If so, then, yes, consider yourself drilled and please sign it! :)
Jim Huffman is right on. What can man do to me/you/us?
Luther's theses begin:
ReplyDelete"Out of love for the truth and the desire to bring it to light, the following propositions will be discussed at Wittenberg, under the presidency of the Reverend Father Martin Luther, Master of Arts and of Sacred Theology, and Lecturer in Ordinary on the same at that place. Wherefore he requests that those who are unable to be present and debate orally with us, may do so by letter."
It's noteworthy that Luther signed his name to his theses. And, as I pointed out on my blog, those who think an issue is fundamentally *theological*--a matter of the truth--have no hesitation to die, if necessary, for the confession of the truth. Those who think that an issue is fundamentally *corporate*--a matter of opinion--do hesitate.
It's been some years since I sang it, but I remember the words: "So take they then our life; goods, fame, child and wife. Let these all be gone; they yet have nothing won. The Kingdom ours remaineth."
No one is saying that risking one's job is an easy matter. But if the "Issue" is truth, well, what choice does one have?
wmc,
ReplyDeleteYou make a very good point. I commended Rev. Asburry for his boldness in the faith on his blog and I want to do the same for you and Rev. Weedon. I also commend Rev. Wilken, Rev. Rossow, Rev. Brondos and other Confessional leaders in the LCMS who I am not yet aware of. I am also thankful for all the faithful pastors behind the scenes who are not as public. You all have been given wonderful gifts by Jesus and have been faithful in using them in His service by His grace and mercy.
I am not a pastor and so I have to agree that I have lot less to lose than you guys, but I want to support you in any way I can and I pray that many other laymen will do the same. I am encouraged by laymen like Jeff Schwarz, Mollie and others who have worked so hard to help pastors like you.
I wish I could have written the new 95, and I would be happy to be the first to sign it. I wouldn't blame any Pastor's for not signing it if that is what is necessary to keep them safe so they can keep proclaiming Christ and Him crucified.
Keep up the good fight and don't get too discouraged or aggravated. You are in Jesus. He is with you and a lot of us laymen are with you and we will be praying for you and supporting you in the days ahead.
Pastor Cwirla et al are right on. The new 95 are sound, Biblical, and right on! What we lack in any single signer's name, we have in support. The evidence is in the blogging, which is untarnished by beaurocratic pseudoresponses.
ReplyDeleteThe fact that the 95 cover such a wide range of topics shows the willingness of truly Confessional Lutherans to stand firm against a whole host of errors. It's not merely for some power trip or hurt feelings' sake we take our stand. Folks, we express the concern that people hear, believe, teach, and confess clearly what Scripture and the Confessions declare.
None of us here wish to see our brothers and sisters swayed by purpose-driven error. None of us here wish to see folks come to the Lor's Supper undiscerning. None of us here want to see the new indulgences (self-help books peddled around with crowds of buyers in tow.
Rather, we have the call, whatever our vocation may be, to diligently study to show our selves approved, rightly handling the Word of truth. We stand firm not in our own glory but in the grace of God freely given.
I would most certainly sign if a petition were to be attached to the new 95. To whoever penned them, thank you for so articulately showing the proper use of FC EP X 5ff!
David Rosenkoetter
"Why would people want to stay in a church body that they fear?"
ReplyDeleteWhy do prostitutes stick to pimps that they fear? Why do neighborhoods pay protection money to gangs?
They've got you tied up with things like discounts on insurance premiums and things.
By the way, as one who's anguished against PLI'ers and JF'ers, here's a few mantras that they use besides 40 Days of Purpose (that's old now):
(1) They like quoting the 4th Commandment way out of context.
(2) Their lay-supporters like to justify things with "We believe, teach, and confess..." again out of context.
(3) They like to "Connect People to Jesus." When they've dismissed Word and Sacrament, who they actually connect you to is up for debate.
(4) They want you to be "contagious Christians." By the way, none of these slogans is original. They come from places like Willowcreeps, I mean, Willowcreek.
(5) People like CNH District President Newton will say "We want more laypeople involved. No layperson gets involved without being trained. No layperson gets trained without my approval."
(6) They also say stuff like "Pastors are to be accountable to nobody but me." geesh. What happened to the Scriptures and the Confessions to which they pledged themselves?
more later.
Anonymous this time. Out of fear? I'm not sure, just wary of how much trouble I stir at any one moment. They know me as a trouble-maker you know...
Maybe they like to use the 4th commandment as some kind of sick justification of a papacy?
ReplyDelete-just a thought.
Note how the Council of Presidents was impotent as to what they could do about the Issues, Etc mess.
Friend, I don't disagree with you about the causes related to insurance and such, though I Timothy 6.10 is always pertinent when discussing such. In another context, I've said that the synod is held together by a pension plan and the vague idea of "being LCMS." But I just re-state my earlier question, and expand it a bit, wondering where the LCMS has come to that we compare ourselves to prostitutes and synodical officials to pimps?
ReplyDelete