Therefore as the presbyters know that they are subject to the one placed over them by an ecclesiastical custom, so the bishops should know that they are greater than the presbyters more through custom than through the verity of an ordinance of the Lord and that they all ought to rule the church in common. -- St. Jerome, Commentary on Titus (1:5)
There's only so much mileage you can get out of St Jerome, when his views on this matter are practically unique among the Fathers, and at odds with the traditional practice of the Church and with the ecumenical canons.
ReplyDeleteAt best Jerome can be used to support what is an acceptable compromise in an emergency, but he's a poor witness to normative Catholic order.
Chris,
ReplyDeleteThat is simply factually in error. You MUST read Piepkorn's research on this. Running the way of Jerome: Polycarp, 2 Clement, Irenaeus, Firmilian of Carthage, St. Clement of Alexandria, and many, many more. Add the witness to presbyteral ordinations in both ancient and medieval church. The freight given the distinction in modern times is simply not what is given in ancient. In this, it is not Jerome, but Ignatius who is lonely.
Fr. Weedon,
ReplyDeleteIt's futile to argue.
The claim of inerrancy carries its own hermeneutic.
The Rev. Fr. Michigan J. Frog
Fr. Weedon,
ReplyDeleteI learned that little bon mot from listening to Sean Hannity.
Signed,
The Rev. Fr. Michigan J. Frog
Pr. Weedon,
ReplyDeleteI have wanted to continue our previous discussion of Jerome, but the press of duty has prevented it thus far. Two questions:
1. What is the source of the Jerome citation on Titus 1:5? Have you seen and read Jerome himself in context, or is that a citation from someone else's work? (I ask, because I want to take the time to go to Calvin College's library and check it out in context myself.)
2. In reading your impressive list of fathers in the reply you make to Chris, I started with the first one: Polycarp. For the life of me, I do not see anywhere in Polycarp that he supports Jerome. Can you take that one case, please, and elaborate?
Thank you.
The unworthy priest,
Fr. Gregory Hogg
Dear Fr. Gregory,
ReplyDeleteThe citations I gave are from the Piepkorn article I referenced to you long ago. You know the man's scholarship - if you can get hold of The Church: Volume 1, you will find his citations listed, and why he counts Polycarp among those who are innocent of a divine distinction between bishops and presbyters. I'd encourage those who want to engage this further to read and assess the massive amount of data that he has assembled on the topic. The specific citation for the Titus Commentary is PL 26:597-598 - he provides you the Latin in the footnote, if you want to work with that rather than hunting through Migne (which even on line is a bear).
1:1 Polycarp, and the presbyters with him, to the Church of God sojourning at Philippi: Mercy to you, and peace from God Almighty, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, our Savior, be multiplied.
ReplyDeletePolycarp to the Philippians 5:3
Wherefore, it is needful to abstain from all these things, being subject to the presbyters and deacons, as unto God and Christ. The virgins also must walk in a blameless and pure conscience.
6:1 And let the presbyters be compassionate and merciful to all, bringing back those that wander, visiting all the sick, and not neglecting the widow, the orphan, or the poor, but always "providing for that which is becoming in the sight of God and man; " abstaining from all wrath, respect of persons, and unjust judgment; keeping far off from all covetousness, not quickly crediting an evil re port against any one, not severe in judgment, as knowing that we are all under a debt of sin.
I am a simple country priest, Pr. Weedon. Here are all the references in Polycarp to presbyters. How does this letter indicate that presbyters and bishops are, iure divino, the same? I don't wish to run to other authors you've listed just now (e.g. Clement, Irenaeus etc.). Let's deal with them one at a time.
Given that Ignatius writes as follows to the Smyrneans: "I salute your most worthy bishop Polycarp, and your venerable presbytery, and your Christ-bearing deacons, my fellow-servants, and all of you individually, as well as generally, in the name of Christ Jesus, and in His flesh and blood, in His passion and resurrection, both corporeal and spiritual, in union with God and you," making his customary distinction, the burden of proof would be on those who deny this distinction in Polycarp himself, given that there's no evidence of any kind to show a different view.
Fr. Gregory,
ReplyDeleteWere does Polycarp ever refer to himself as a bishop? Where does he ever speak of the presbyters as being in submission to him? I don't have more time for this now - my sister is arriving tomorrow to spend the holidays with us (we've not been together for Thanksgiving since sometime in the 1980's - and she still is suffering from cancer) and I have a funeral in the parish to attend to before the weekend. But I will pick up after the weekend - meanwhile, if you get the chance, same me from writing out all that Piepkorn argues and find the essay!
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ReplyDeleteAndrew,
ReplyDeleteI've not read his work - but I will try to find it. The evidence that I have seen gathered by Piepkorn is, however, rather overwhelming. And appears to be generally unknown or discounted by those who have their minds made up on the matter. Understand, please, that I am all for the three-fold order as a wonderful way to govern the Church's life and maybe the very best human arrangement of all. But I do not see it as universally assumed in either the fathers or church practice as being something that was of the essence of the Church herself - something divinely instituted. If YOU have not read the Piepkorn essay, I'd commend it to you as well. Quite worthy of consideration.
Pastor Weedon,
ReplyDeleteWhere can I find it?
Google: Arthur Carl Piepkorn. The Church: Selected Writings of Arthur Carl Piepkorn. Particularly in reference to Excursus I (The Primitive and Medieval Church on the Identity of Bishops and Presbyters) and Excursus II (The Minister of Ordination in the Primitive and Medieval Church) attached to the essay "The Sacred Ministry and Holy Ordination in the Symbolical Books of the Lutheran Church."
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeletePastor Weedon--
ReplyDeleteI checked 2 Clement and found no references to presbyters or bishops. Did you mean 1 Clement 42-44?
Is his argument that these authors use the New Testament locution "bishops and deacons", implying that the bishop is a collegiate institution?