The LCMS needs another President Barry. Barry would have pulled no punches and would have decreed that the ELCA's most recent decision only confirms that they are an apostate body. Kieschnik is too much of a coddler. The LCMS should break off ties with the ELCA, no longer have any joint dialogues or projects with them, and even excommunicate their hierarchs, priests and anyone who remains.
Witness the truth, Jerry for once. Or are you only too eager to take a stand when someone in the LCMS uses the historic Liturgy, which, as we all know, is an unforgiveable sin.
Please tell me that Kieschnik will be booted out in 2010.
Reread the address. Your President merely descibes what will happen on the basis of the ELCA's decision. Nowhere does he prophetically denounce this decision. He says that it only "threatens to cause a chasm". But, Scripture teaches, "What fellowship has light with darkness?" A chasm already exists between good and evil; the righteous must flee such things.
In other words, business as usual - all kinds of entangling shared "ministries" and a visit by the ELCA "bishop" at the LCMS convention.
Blah blah blah. I found it rather mealy-mouthed and fence-riding.
It's time to quit playing pattycake and cut the cord. No more playing pretend that we're both Lutheran.
If denying that Scripture is the Word of God, "ordaining" women, blessing "gay" unions, and okaying homosexual clergy is not enough to finally sever our ties, I wonder what it will take?
The LCMS needs another President Barry. Barry would have pulled no punches and would have decreed that the ELCA's most recent decision only confirms that they are an apostate body.
Chris, I couldn't agree more. Dr. Alvin Barry was a gem.
I understand the desire to speak charitably and kindly, but I can't agree that it was a fine address.
Pres. Kieschnick's address misses the mark. He does not speak with the prophet's voice and call for repentance. He says that we are divided but we might be heading toward a chasm. Might be! Good grief. The ELCA has departed from almost every Christian and holy understanding of God's Word.
The LCMS should address this straight on. The time for pulling punches and playing nice is long past. There is a time for speaking strong rebuke. This was one.
That being said, our own body sorely needs the same preaching in many areas. That does not relieve our duty to speak where sin is praised and glorified.
I think you all are reacting to the words as if they were meant exclusively for those who voted FOR the changes; I heard them as addressed primarily to those who voted against them and for whom now momentous choices loom - and, I may be wrong, but I suspect that the minority in the CWA represent the majority of ELCA parishes and laity.
Grant, it seemed all but a foregone conclusion; but if there were any hanging onto a thread of hope, hoping against despair, well now that hope is gone. In that scenario, the President's words were not a crushing indictment (the crushing indictment had already been spoken from God's Word by those in opposition on the floor), but a word of reminder of the CAUSE behind this disaster. The cause needs to be addressed, because if it's not then CORE's and others approaches that leave women's ordination intact are simply setting themselves up for the exact same failure down the road.
That's my take, in any case, and that's why I thought it was a fine address.
It took about thirty plus years of women's ordination to work its way through the predecessor bodies of the ELCA before it got to where it is today. But with quickee SMP Vicars and Seminary Vicars allowed to attempt to consecrate the holy Eucharist, the mechanism is in place for the next generation.
The ELCA itself was formed amid compromise to serve "unity" or "mission" etc, and when doctrinal compromise is at the origin of a church body's inception, it is only a matter of time before, what else, more compromise. In that sense, LCMS has always been LCMS, so if there is a revolution its path with be different, though still featuring compromise amid lots of talk about unity, mission, etc.
There was a fine article up a Consensus, which for some reason is no longer up itself, detailing LCMS' less than clear responses to earlier controversies within Lutheranism, seeing that as a trend that has adversely affected LCMS since the start.
Even if the words were primarily meant for those facing the what-now question, will an influx of those looking for solid Lutheran doctrine and worship find it if they come our way, or will they find themselves discouraging from making too much of all that because it hurts the numbers, er, "mission"?
The LCMS needs another President Barry. Barry would have pulled no punches and would have decreed that the ELCA's most recent decision only confirms that they are an apostate body. Kieschnik is too much of a coddler. The LCMS should break off ties with the ELCA, no longer have any joint dialogues or projects with them, and even excommunicate their hierarchs, priests and anyone who remains.
ReplyDeleteWitness the truth, Jerry for once. Or are you only too eager to take a stand when someone in the LCMS uses the historic Liturgy, which, as we all know, is an unforgiveable sin.
Please tell me that Kieschnik will be booted out in 2010.
Pastor Weedon,
ReplyDeleteReread the address. Your President merely descibes what will happen on the basis of the ELCA's decision. Nowhere does he prophetically denounce this decision. He says that it only "threatens to cause a chasm". But, Scripture teaches, "What fellowship has light with darkness?" A chasm already exists between good and evil; the righteous must flee such things.
In other words, business as usual - all kinds of entangling shared "ministries" and a visit by the ELCA "bishop" at the LCMS convention.
ReplyDeleteBlah blah blah. I found it rather mealy-mouthed and fence-riding.
It's time to quit playing pattycake and cut the cord. No more playing pretend that we're both Lutheran.
If denying that Scripture is the Word of God, "ordaining" women, blessing "gay" unions, and okaying homosexual clergy is not enough to finally sever our ties, I wonder what it will take?
We ain't seen nothin' yet.
The LCMS needs another President Barry. Barry would have pulled no punches and would have decreed that the ELCA's most recent decision only confirms that they are an apostate body.
ReplyDeleteChris, I couldn't agree more. Dr. Alvin Barry was a gem.
Christine
I understand the desire to speak charitably and kindly, but I can't agree that it was a fine address.
ReplyDeletePres. Kieschnick's address misses the mark. He does not speak with the prophet's voice and call for repentance. He says that we are divided but we might be heading toward a chasm. Might be! Good grief. The ELCA has departed from almost every Christian and holy understanding of God's Word.
The LCMS should address this straight on. The time for pulling punches and playing nice is long past. There is a time for speaking strong rebuke. This was one.
That being said, our own body sorely needs the same preaching in many areas. That does not relieve our duty to speak where sin is praised and glorified.
Lord, have mercy on us.
I think you all are reacting to the words as if they were meant exclusively for those who voted FOR the changes; I heard them as addressed primarily to those who voted against them and for whom now momentous choices loom - and, I may be wrong, but I suspect that the minority in the CWA represent the majority of ELCA parishes and laity.
ReplyDeleteGrant, it seemed all but a foregone conclusion; but if there were any hanging onto a thread of hope, hoping against despair, well now that hope is gone. In that scenario, the President's words were not a crushing indictment (the crushing indictment had already been spoken from God's Word by those in opposition on the floor), but a word of reminder of the CAUSE behind this disaster. The cause needs to be addressed, because if it's not then CORE's and others approaches that leave women's ordination intact are simply setting themselves up for the exact same failure down the road.
That's my take, in any case, and that's why I thought it was a fine address.
Scott,
ReplyDeleteIt took about thirty plus years of women's ordination to work its way through the predecessor bodies of the ELCA before it got to where it is today. But with quickee SMP Vicars and Seminary Vicars allowed to attempt to consecrate the holy Eucharist, the mechanism is in place for the next generation.
The ELCA itself was formed amid compromise to serve "unity" or "mission" etc, and when doctrinal compromise is at the origin of a church body's inception, it is only a matter of time before, what else, more compromise. In that sense, LCMS has always been LCMS, so if there is a revolution its path with be different, though still featuring compromise amid lots of talk about unity, mission, etc.
ReplyDeleteThere was a fine article up a Consensus, which for some reason is no longer up itself, detailing LCMS' less than clear responses to earlier controversies within Lutheranism, seeing that as a trend that has adversely affected LCMS since the start.
Even if the words were primarily meant for those facing the what-now question, will an influx of those looking for solid Lutheran doctrine and worship find it if they come our way, or will they find themselves discouraging from making too much of all that because it hurts the numbers, er, "mission"?