Actually, he's agreeing with the Lutheran position:
"We also believe, teach, and confess that all people, but especially those who are born again and renewed by the Holy Spirit, are obligated to do good works. In this sense, the words necessary, shall, and must are used correctly and in a Christian way to describe the regenerate, and are in no way contrary to the form of sound words and speech." FC Ep IV:8,9
This statement needs to be more clearly defined. It could be falsely (I assume) understood as saying that my sanctification and thus my justification depend on my "disciplinary work."
I wonder whether he means good works in a positive sense here, or rather the mortification and denial of our sinful nature. Maybe both? My understanding is that in the gospel we receive both forgiveness of sins and the new life of the Spirit working within. And we must not separate these. To deny the working of the Spirit (and it is properly understood as his working, not mine) is at the same time to deny faith and thus justification. Is it not the same as with a Christian's daily repentance? Turning from sin in confession to God is not a justifying 'work', yet without repentance, faith dies. Pr Weedon, would you agree? PS I ordered a copy of Köberle; the quotes whetted my appetite.
Read the book for the context - it's clear he doesn't build justification upon sanctification, but the reverse. Yet it's clear that without renewal, there is no justifying faith (as our Symbols also teach).
"We also believe, teach, and confess that not our works but only the Holy Spirit, working through faith, preserves faith and salvation in us. The good works are testimonies of the Holy Spirit's presence and indwelling." FC Ep IV:10.
Your quote from Luther on the vine and branches expresses this idea beautifully.
If K's "disciplinary action" is that of the Holy Spirit working in us through Word and Sacrament, then he is right on.
My point was to say that our disciplinary actions do not keep us in faith anymore than our good works justified us. Otherwise, your friend Anastasia is correct and we should all become Orthodox or better yet, papist.
Köberle's point is that a faith that lacks self-control is not the faith that justifies, but historical knowledge of the facts of revelation. Faith, wrought by the Holy Spirit, bears the fruit of the Spirit, however imperfectly and weakly. A faith without such fruit is a delusion. He's already defined sanctification at this point in the book as entirely gift and yet a gift that entails and enables our vigilance lest we, by yielding to the flesh, drive out the Spirit.
William, that doesn't sound like what he's actually saying. When he says faith will die, he at least strongly implies it was there before it died.
And if that's what he is saying, it accords with John 15:2.
And also with Orthodox teaching.
Matthias, just because Lutheranism may agree with Orthodoxy here and there is no reason for all running over to Orthodoxy! (Though of course you should do that.)
Correct that real faith WAS there. His point is that real faith cannot and does not remain where the flesh is given free reign. Thus, "The Holy Spirit does not permit sin to have dominion, to gain the upper hand so that it can be carried out, but represses and restrains it from doing what it wants. If sin does what it wants, the Holy Spirit and faith are not present. For St. John says: No one born of God makes a practice of sinning. And it is also true when St. John says, If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and truth is not in us" SA III, III, 44,45
It's just an area where I do not think the Orthodox and the Lutherans disagree; there are plenty where they do!
Sanctification IS a facet of salvation, so in this sense, works are indeed necessary.
In fact, sanctification is the aspect of salvation with which, in this life, we are principally concerned, since without some efforts in this direction, all the rest dies away, as your man so astutely observes.
The reverse (on converse?) is also true, as St. James teaches: with and by works, faith is established and perfected.
I wonder whether the way to reconcile this idea with FC Ep IV:10 is to see that while good works necessarily follow from faith and hence do not preserve it (the Spirit indeed preserving it), nevertheless our deliberate sinning/following after the flesh can destroy our faith and sever our life in Christ. Our 'contribution' is thus to be considered negatively. I think you had another quote from Köberle a while ago which had that emphasis: our job is not to rebel against the working of God.
Point taken, Anastasia. My theorizing was indeed too simplistic! Perhaps the more obvious truth is that the necessary active effort on our part is always sustained by the Spirit who empowers us; we are certainly not on our own in our attempts at good works. In this sense it is of course the Spirit who is the preserver of faith, without diminishing our obligation to cooperate with the Spirit's work in our lives.
Hmm... so he's actually agreeing with the Orthodox position that says works are necessary.
ReplyDeleteActually, he's agreeing with the Lutheran position:
ReplyDelete"We also believe, teach, and confess that all people, but especially those who are born again and renewed by the Holy Spirit, are obligated to do good works. In this sense, the words necessary, shall, and must are used correctly and in a Christian way to describe the regenerate, and are in no way contrary to the form of sound words and speech." FC Ep IV:8,9
This statement needs to be more clearly defined. It could be falsely (I assume) understood as saying that my sanctification and thus my justification depend on my "disciplinary work."
ReplyDeleteI wonder whether he means good works in a positive sense here, or rather the mortification and denial of our sinful nature. Maybe both? My understanding is that in the gospel we receive both forgiveness of sins and the new life of the Spirit working within. And we must not separate these. To deny the working of the Spirit (and it is properly understood as his working, not mine) is at the same time to deny faith and thus justification. Is it not the same as with a Christian's daily repentance? Turning from sin in confession to God is not a justifying 'work', yet without repentance, faith dies. Pr Weedon, would you agree?
ReplyDeletePS I ordered a copy of Köberle; the quotes whetted my appetite.
Matt,
ReplyDeleteRead the book for the context - it's clear he doesn't build justification upon sanctification, but the reverse. Yet it's clear that without renewal, there is no justifying faith (as our Symbols also teach).
Stephen,
ReplyDeleteIn short, yes. See SA Part 3, III, 44,45.
Pr Weedon,
ReplyDeleteTruly the Symbols teach the truth of Scripture...
"We also believe, teach, and confess that not our works but only the Holy Spirit, working through faith, preserves faith and salvation in us. The good works are testimonies of the Holy Spirit's presence and indwelling." FC Ep IV:10.
Your quote from Luther on the vine and branches expresses this idea beautifully.
If K's "disciplinary action" is that of the Holy Spirit working in us through Word and Sacrament, then he is right on.
My point was to say that our disciplinary actions do not keep us in faith anymore than our good works justified us. Otherwise, your friend Anastasia is correct and we should all become Orthodox or better yet, papist.
May God grant us true faith in his Son.
Matt,
ReplyDeleteKöberle's point is that a faith that lacks self-control is not the faith that justifies, but historical knowledge of the facts of revelation. Faith, wrought by the Holy Spirit, bears the fruit of the Spirit, however imperfectly and weakly. A faith without such fruit is a delusion. He's already defined sanctification at this point in the book as entirely gift and yet a gift that entails and enables our vigilance lest we, by yielding to the flesh, drive out the Spirit.
A faith without such fruit is a delusion.
ReplyDeleteWilliam, that doesn't sound like what he's actually saying. When he says faith will die, he at least strongly implies it was there before it died.
And if that's what he is saying, it accords with John 15:2.
And also with Orthodox teaching.
Matthias, just because Lutheranism may agree with Orthodoxy here and there is no reason for all running over to Orthodoxy! (Though of course you should do that.)
Correct that real faith WAS there. His point is that real faith cannot and does not remain where the flesh is given free reign. Thus, "The Holy Spirit does not permit sin to have dominion, to gain the upper hand so that it can be carried out, but represses and restrains it from doing what it wants. If sin does what it wants, the Holy Spirit and faith are not present. For St. John says: No one born of God makes a practice of sinning. And it is also true when St. John says, If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and truth is not in us" SA III, III, 44,45
ReplyDeleteIt's just an area where I do not think the Orthodox and the Lutherans disagree; there are plenty where they do!
Um, well, but that's provided one doesn't drive out the Holy Spirit, yes? I mean, you don't believe in Irresistible Grace, correct?
ReplyDeleteThis is a wonderful thread!
ReplyDeleteAnd I'm going to remember it the next time some Lutheran calls Orthodoxy semi-Pelagian.
Or gripes about synergy.
:-)
That's good, as long as you note that for the Lutherans it was a conversation regarding sanctification... :)
ReplyDeleteBut of course. Sanctification is the topic.
ReplyDeleteSanctification IS a facet of salvation, so in this sense, works are indeed necessary.
In fact, sanctification is the aspect of salvation with which, in this life, we are principally concerned, since without some efforts in this direction, all the rest dies away, as your man so astutely observes.
The reverse (on converse?) is also true, as St. James teaches: with and by works, faith is established and perfected.
INVERSE. 'Scuse me.
ReplyDeleteI wonder whether the way to reconcile this idea with FC Ep IV:10 is to see that while good works necessarily follow from faith and hence do not preserve it (the Spirit indeed preserving it), nevertheless our deliberate sinning/following after the flesh can destroy our faith and sever our life in Christ. Our 'contribution' is thus to be considered negatively. I think you had another quote from Köberle a while ago which had that emphasis: our job is not to rebel against the working of God.
ReplyDeleteThat's a nice theory, Stephen. Thing is, in real life, not rebelling against God requires constant, active effort.
ReplyDeleteEverybody experiences this.
Point taken, Anastasia. My theorizing was indeed too simplistic! Perhaps the more obvious truth is that the necessary active effort on our part is always sustained by the Spirit who empowers us; we are certainly not on our own in our attempts at good works. In this sense it is of course the Spirit who is the preserver of faith, without diminishing our obligation to cooperate with the Spirit's work in our lives.
ReplyDeleteYup.
ReplyDeleteThe Holy Spirit keeps prompting us to DO stuff, so not resisting Him involves getting up and doing all the things He prompts us to do.
I like to say the work is all His and the effort is all ours.