I noticed today (at least I don't THINK I noticed before), that Magdeburg has a different collect for All Saints than the one in our current book. Our current is an Anglican creation from the Book of Common Prayer. Here is the original Latin collect for this feast:
Omnipotens semiterne Deus, qui nos omnium Sanctorum tuorum merita sub una tribuisti celebritate venerari: quaesumus; ut desideratam nobis tuae propitiationis abundatiam, muliplicatis intercessoribus, largiaris. Per...
This is slightly revised in Magdeburg:
Omnipotens sempiterne Deus, qui nos omnes Sanctos tuos sub una tribuisti celebritate venerari, quasumus, ut disideratam nobis tuae propitiationis abundamtiam, multiplicatis fidei et virtutum exemplis largiaris, Per Dominum nostrum...
I asked Matt Carver and Pr. Curtis for some help in translating and this is my composite of what they came up with:
Almighty, eternal God, who in one solemnity has granted us to venerate all Your saints, we beseech You, that having so multiplied examples of faith and good virtues, You would bestow upon us Your abundant propitiation, which we desire.
Now, any other Latinists out there want to take a stab at it???
Any chance the word "multiplied" would not better be rendered "many" and, in that way, the collect may make some sense, otherwise it doesn't and would tend to contradict the AC and Ap on saints.
ReplyDeleteHow does God multiplying the examples of the saints faith and virtues contradict the Symbols? You should ask BEN to look over here and give us his opinion on the best translation.
ReplyDeleteOne could do "enlarged" or "given so many" - although the multiply here dovetails with the "be fruitful and multiply" -- the implication in language is that of a growth of the Church as born demonstrated by the cloud of witnesses.
ReplyDeleteLet me try:
Almighty and Eternal God, who hast allowed us to venerate all Your saints in this one feast, we ask that you would grant to us your abundant propitiation, by which faith is grown and examples of virtue are increased, through....
But this is taking the verbs in the last clause as passives with attendant datives of means... but I can't remember if that is just a Greek way of doing things or Latin.
I knew I should have taken more than just summer Latin. Oh well.
The ablative absolute "with examples…having been multiplied" has several ways of being put into the sentence. I had "who hast given us so many examples" at one point. Now, with "You who" you have to use the verb "have" not "has," but it sounds awkward to modern ears with direct address ("You who have given…), so most collects now turn the vocative relative into an indicative ("You have given…").
ReplyDeleteOmnipotens semiterne Deus, qui nos omnium Sanctorum tuorum merita sub una tribuisti celebritate venerari: quaesumus; ut desideratam nobis tuae propitiationis abundatiam, muliplicatis intercessoribus, largiaris.
ReplyDeleteAlmighty and Everlasting God, who granted us under one solemnity to venerate the merits of all Thy Saints: We beseech that Thou wouldst bestow upon us the desired abundance of your mercy, by their ever increasing prayers.
Omnipotens sempiterne Deus, qui nos omnes Sanctos tuos sub una tribuisti celebritate venerari, quasumus, ut disideratam nobis tuae propitiationis abundamtiam, multiplicatis fidei et virtutum exemplis largiaris, Per Dominum nostrum...
Almighty and Everlasting God, who granted us to Venerate all Thy Saints under one solemnity: We beseech Thee that Thou wouldst bestow upon us the desired abundance of Thy mercy and, by their examples, the power of their ever increased faith. Through...
My stab at it. Take it for what it's worth. I notice there is no "merits" in the Magedburg version.
I don't read my own blog all that much, so I missed PW's comment on the Armistice post asking me to look at this. I'm gonna stick to English, which was always given in preconciliar missals so you could read in English what was being said in Latin.
ReplyDeleteIn my "Manual of Prayers for the Use of the Catholic Laity", subtitled "The Official Prayer Book of the Catholic Church", ordered by the Third Plenary Council of Baltimore and approved by James Cardinal Gibbons no less, Archbishop of Baltimore and Apostolic Delegate to the United States, the Collect reads:
Almighty, Everlasting God, who givest us to venerate in one Solemnity the merits of all Thy saints, we beseech Thee that through the multitude of our intercessors Thou wouldst bestow upon us the fulness of Thy mercy, which we most humbly desire. Through etc.
In the missal I actually used growing up, which I still have, the 1950 St Joseph Daily Missal, the All Saints Collect goes:
Almighty and everlasting God, who hast granted us to venerate in one solemn feast the merits of all Thy saints, we beseech Thee, that, since so many are praying for us, Thou wouldst pout forth upon us the desired abundance of Thy mercy. Through etc.
Same thing, and same as Chris's (yes, I am agreeing with Chris, doesn't happen a lot), and his translation of both versions is just fine.
What is to be noted is not this or that turn of phrase, but that the RC collect quite clearly expresses the idea that the saints in heaven are praying for us, whereas the other expresses their examples as a model and motivator, but not their prayers for us.
I think out beef with the intercessory prayer of the saints in heaven is not so much, not at all, to resolve whether they do or don't, but to say nothing in Scripture clearly says they do, or that they do not, and to get all hung up in this detracts from the only intercession that really matters, that of Christ.
Therefore, the All Saints collect, as with all things, is resolved by recourse to THE Lutheran Hymnal, which gives the collect appropriately, whatever previous versions may exist, thus:
O almighty God, who hast knit together Thine elect in one communion and fellowship in the mystical body of The Son Jesus Christ, our Lord, grant us grace so to follow Thy blessed saints in all virtuous and godly living that we may some to those unspeakable joys which Thou hast prepared for those who unfeignedly love Thee; through etc.
TLH man.