today, the Mass began with FRANZMANN'S "In Adam We Have All Been One." Sweet! I love it when Roman Catholics sing Lutheran doctrine - especially that on original sin!!!
11 comments:
Anonymous
said...
EWTN you say?
Wish you could have heard Marcus Grodi on "The Journey Home" tonight. Grodi is a former Lutheran and then Presbyterian pastor, now a Catholic layman who interviews Catholic converts.
What he says about the deficiences of Lutherans (who are, of course, "Protestants") is enough to turn Luther over in his grave. Lutherans, in Grodi's view, don't have a very loving image of God (at least that's how he remembers his Lutheran upbringing), all because of Luther's doctrine of "total depravity" (I think his Presbyterianism sometimes gets mixed up with his Lutheranism), we see God the Father as a strict and harsh judge, we don't have the comfort of knowing our sins are totally wiped away in Baptism, making us sinless, we of course don't have the Real Presence and all the other goodies that EWTN has, and Lutherans, like other Protestants, don't really have a coherent set of beliefs.
I watch once in a while when I'm doing the laundry only because it amazes me how a former Lutheran pastor can get it all so wrong. But then, many Catholics regard EWTN as being a bit "odd".
LOL, Christine. It is SILLY to see their characterization of us; but I do rejoice nonetheless when the pure truth of God's Word as enshrined in our hymns is sung at their mass!
It had to re-invent itself outside of the jurisdiction of RCC ordinaries to even continue to exist.
To take their shows -- and shows is the operative word -- as representative of Catholicism of any era misunderstands Catholicism of any era.
They are representative of nothing but themselves, entirely unsupported by the RCC as an institution and quite remote from anything like parish life as an RC.
You thought the show with the sweet little Norwegian nun was a train wreck? I have never watched the show before in my life but caught a part of it tonight. I thought the greater problem was the nun, fully catechized and confirmed as a Lutheran, didn't realize the Lutherans teach that the Body and Blood of Christ are present in the Eucharist. And in the end she was saying essentially everyone (the non-Catholics) is OK where they are and Grobi had to say, "...but Sister, don't you think they should all experience the fullness of the Church?"
The nun kept saying she used to be a Protestant, too. I guess they don't teach that "Protestant" isn't what Lutherans are in Norway.
Anyway...I liked the nun a lot. And she basically gave credit to her Lutheran beginnings as being the foundation for her faith. She held no bitterness toward Lutheranism.
Reading these posts I am reminded of something Peter Kreeft, a convert to Catholicism, once asked himself. How is it that the Catholic Church can be so wrong on everything and yet get beauty so right?
Reading these posts I am reminded of something Peter Kreeft, a convert to Catholicism, once asked himself. How is it that the Catholic Church can be so wrong on everything and yet get beauty so right?
Beauty? Not so sure that one can rely on beauty as a marker of authenticity. I have seen Buddhist shrines that are utterly magnificent insofar as beauty goes.
The Lutheran tradition that Marcus Grodi described is utterly foreign to what I was brought up on. Nor did the nun strike me as having a very good grasp of authentic Lutheran teaching.
It also amused me how Grodi became a bit uncomfortable at the way she gushed over the changes brought about by Vatican II.
I have to agree, the entire show was a train wreck and made me happier than ever that I left the RC.
It ALWAYS gets back to the "changes" since Vatican II. Neuhaus himself was quite clear that this Tiber swimming would not be happening without it.
What those "changes" signal re Catholicism is not really a matter for this blog, except to say that for Lutherans who fall for it, they are accepting a "Catholicism" that dates from the 1960s.
It would be analogous to a person accepting the current ELCA and thinking they have connected with the "evangelical Lutheran church" we profess (we being Lutheran converts like me).
Since becoming Lutheran, I cannot help but think this is not in large part a consequence of we ourselves having remade our worship to resemble the novus ordo of the new Catholicism to such a high degreee -- folowing heterodox churches in abandoning the historic order and lectionary for the option-heavy VII style.
For clarity's sake -- I do not mean that ALL Lutherans do not profess the evangelical Lutheran church, but to compare converts to the RCC from Lutheranism to converts to Lutheranism in the profession of faith we make.
Sweet justification indeed! Could be Some RC don’t even realize they are Lutheran. News like this makes me optimistic. After all it is Jesus’ fervent prayer we be one.
Richard Neuhaus died January 9, 2009 at the age of 72. In our January 25, 2009 Bible study, Pastor Genig said, "I'm still struck by the following:"
When I come before the judgment throne, I will plead the promise of God in the shed blood of Jesus Christ. I will not plead any work that I have done, although I will thank God that he has enabled me to do some good. I will plead merit other than the merits of Christ, knowing that the merits of Mary and the saint are all from him; and for their company, their example, and their prayer throughout my earthly life I will give everlasting thanks. I will not plead that I had faith, for sometimes I was unsure of my faith, and in any event, that would be to turn faith into a meritorious work of my own. I will not plead that I held the correct understanding of "justification by faith alone," although I will thank God that he led me to know ever more fully the great truth that much misunderstood formulation was intended to protect. Whatever little growth in holiness I have experienced, whatever strength I have received from the company of the saints, whatever understanding I have attained of God and his way - these and all other gifts received I will bring gratefully to the throne. But in seeking entry to that heavenly kingdom, I will ... look to Christ and Christ alone.
Richard John Neuhaus, Death on a Friday Afternoon, 70.
10 months later, I too am still struck by what is written here. I did some research and there is much to say about his pen and his good works. Even as a Roman Catholic he acknowledged justification by faith alone, and adds faith is never alone but always accompanied by love. I found him to be a quite humble Roman Catholic theologian and polemicist that recognized that only through truth can there be Christian unity, and that it is an essential of the Christian faith. He worked hard at bringing the various Christians sects to the table. It was Jesus’ fervent prayer that we be one. I am stunned at some of his political views but clearly believe that he died a Lutheran.
11 comments:
EWTN you say?
Wish you could have heard Marcus Grodi on "The Journey Home" tonight. Grodi is a former Lutheran and then Presbyterian pastor, now a Catholic layman who interviews Catholic converts.
What he says about the deficiences of Lutherans (who are, of course, "Protestants") is enough to turn Luther over in his grave. Lutherans, in Grodi's view, don't have a very loving image of God (at least that's how he remembers his Lutheran upbringing), all because of Luther's doctrine of "total depravity" (I think his Presbyterianism sometimes gets mixed up with his Lutheranism), we see God the Father as a strict and harsh judge, we don't have the comfort of knowing our sins are totally wiped away in Baptism, making us sinless, we of course don't have the Real Presence and all the other goodies that EWTN has, and Lutherans, like other Protestants, don't really have a coherent set of beliefs.
I watch once in a while when I'm doing the laundry only because it amazes me how a former Lutheran pastor can get it all so wrong. But then, many Catholics regard EWTN as being a bit "odd".
Christine
LOL, Christine. It is SILLY to see their characterization of us; but I do rejoice nonetheless when the pure truth of God's Word as enshrined in our hymns is sung at their mass!
EWTN is a train wreck.
It had to re-invent itself outside of the jurisdiction of RCC ordinaries to even continue to exist.
To take their shows -- and shows is the operative word -- as representative of Catholicism of any era misunderstands Catholicism of any era.
They are representative of nothing but themselves, entirely unsupported by the RCC as an institution and quite remote from anything like parish life as an RC.
However, if one needs a strong emetic ...
You thought the show with the sweet little Norwegian nun was a train wreck? I have never watched the show before in my life but caught a part of it tonight. I thought the greater problem was the nun, fully catechized and confirmed as a Lutheran, didn't realize the Lutherans teach that the Body and Blood of Christ are present in the Eucharist. And in the end she was saying essentially everyone (the non-Catholics) is OK where they are and Grobi had to say, "...but Sister, don't you think they should all experience the fullness of the Church?"
The nun kept saying she used to be a Protestant, too. I guess they don't teach that "Protestant" isn't what Lutherans are in Norway.
Anyway...I liked the nun a lot. And she basically gave credit to her Lutheran beginnings as being the foundation for her faith. She held no bitterness toward Lutheranism.
Reading these posts I am reminded of something Peter Kreeft, a convert to Catholicism, once asked himself. How is it that the Catholic Church can be so wrong on everything and yet get beauty so right?
Even the Prince of Darkness can look like an angel of light. Easy.
What is odd, is that I have written to EWTN a couple of times about their mis-characterizations and I have never gotten a response.
I still watch it. Bad habits die hard.
Reading these posts I am reminded of something Peter Kreeft, a convert to Catholicism, once asked himself. How is it that the Catholic Church can be so wrong on everything and yet get beauty so right?
Beauty? Not so sure that one can rely on beauty as a marker of authenticity. I have seen Buddhist shrines that are utterly magnificent insofar as beauty goes.
The Lutheran tradition that Marcus Grodi described is utterly foreign to what I was brought up on.
Nor did the nun strike me as having a very good grasp of authentic Lutheran teaching.
It also amused me how Grodi became a bit uncomfortable at the way she gushed over the changes brought about by Vatican II.
I have to agree, the entire show was a train wreck and made me happier than ever that I left the RC.
Christine
It ALWAYS gets back to the "changes" since Vatican II. Neuhaus himself was quite clear that this Tiber swimming would not be happening without it.
What those "changes" signal re Catholicism is not really a matter for this blog, except to say that for Lutherans who fall for it, they are accepting a "Catholicism" that dates from the 1960s.
It would be analogous to a person accepting the current ELCA and thinking they have connected with the "evangelical Lutheran church" we profess (we being Lutheran converts like me).
Since becoming Lutheran, I cannot help but think this is not in large part a consequence of we ourselves having remade our worship to resemble the novus ordo of the new Catholicism to such a high degreee -- folowing heterodox churches in abandoning the historic order and lectionary for the option-heavy VII style.
For clarity's sake -- I do not mean that ALL Lutherans do not profess the evangelical Lutheran church, but to compare converts to the RCC from Lutheranism to converts to Lutheranism in the profession of faith we make.
Sweet justification indeed! Could be Some RC don’t even realize they are Lutheran. News like this makes me optimistic. After all it is Jesus’ fervent prayer we be one.
Richard Neuhaus died January 9, 2009 at the age of 72. In our January 25, 2009 Bible study, Pastor Genig said, "I'm still struck by the following:"
When I come before the judgment throne, I will plead the promise of God in the shed blood of Jesus Christ. I will not plead any work that I have done, although I will thank God that he has enabled me to do some good. I will plead merit other than the merits of Christ, knowing that the merits of Mary and the saint are all from him; and for their company, their example, and their prayer throughout my earthly life I will give everlasting thanks. I will not plead that I had faith, for sometimes I was unsure of my faith, and in any event, that would be to turn faith into a meritorious work of my own. I will not plead that I held the correct understanding of "justification by faith alone," although I will thank God that he led me to know ever more fully the great truth that much misunderstood formulation was intended to protect. Whatever little growth in holiness I have experienced, whatever strength I have received from the company of the saints, whatever understanding I have attained of God and his way - these and all other gifts received I will bring gratefully to the throne. But in seeking entry to that heavenly kingdom, I will ... look to Christ and Christ alone.
Richard John Neuhaus, Death on a Friday Afternoon, 70.
10 months later, I too am still struck by what is written here. I did some research and there is much to say about his pen and his good works. Even as a Roman Catholic he acknowledged justification by faith alone, and adds faith is never alone but always accompanied by love. I found him to be a quite humble Roman Catholic theologian and polemicist that recognized that only through truth can there be Christian unity, and that it is an essential of the Christian faith. He worked hard at bringing the various Christians sects to the table. It was Jesus’ fervent prayer that we be one. I am stunned at some of his political views but clearly believe that he died a Lutheran.
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