While not as awesome as those previously mentioned, I have found it a blessing to be at Zion in Columbus. I have taken my daughters up during Sunday School time and gone through our stained glass windows with them.
If you want to look beyond LCMS churches, there is St. Mary's Cathedral on the campus of Notre Dame in South Bend, Indiana and The Chapel of the Resurrection on the campus of Valpo.
The Air Force Academy Chapel in Colorado Springs and the Navy Academy Chapel near Baltimore.
Pr. Harrison makes a very interesting, if not scandalous remark, that Christ is forever crucified. Yes, preach Christ crucified, but not that He is crucified forever! Where is the Resurrection then? It almost makes the Resurrection powerless. The Resurrection is the source of our faith for without it, St. Paul says in Romans, our faith is in VAIN.
But the Greek verbs and verbals in the NT, particularly the Pauline corpus, are aorist or perfect which means an action that has been completed. EIther PR. Harrison misspoke or is in sore need of a Greek refresher course.
But let's just assume that his choice of words is completely intentional. I don't see how any Lutheran pastor can say that and not see the many theological pitfalls that would naturally ensue. If the Lord is eternally crucified, do Lutherans then partake of the Body and Blood of the Dead Lord Jesus? If Christ is eternally crucified, then how can you object to the Latin Canon of the Mass since that too deals with continued sacrifice? THe death and Resurrection of our Lord is one event. Dividing the episodes and say that both the Crucifixion and Resurrection are eternal side by side only makes for confusion.
The Lord's death is re-presented at every Divine Liturgy. It is a mystery. That is not one and the same as saying that he is eternally crucified. IF Christ's one time death was sufficient to take away the sins of the world, which is the standard hallmark of Lutheran preaching, then such a remark would seem to be utterly contradictory.
I think you are just reading too much into what he said: what he was trying to express is exactly what we sang during the Distribution this morning:
Paschal Lamb, Your offering finished Once for all when You were slain, In its fullness undiminished Shall forevermore remain. Alleluia! Alleluia! Cleansing souls from every stain, Cleansing souls from every stain.
P.S. It's also like the language in Revelation of the Lamb SLAIN from the foundation of the world. The Risen One remains forever He who was crucified - the scars testify to the sacrifice forever.
The hymn that you sung this morning with the phrase "that was slain" is NOT the same thing as "eternally slain" or "eternally crucified" or what have you. Those are two entirely disparate things linguistically. "Was slain" refers to an event that is complete. To say that Chris is "eternally slain" or "eternally crucified" suggests (pretty obviously) that Christ's crucifixion keeps happening and happening and that there is no end to it and that would seriously contradict the Scriptures, (q.v. Hebrews) where Christ's sacrifice is regarded as a one time event that took away the sins of the world. The two propositions are not the same. It would be like saying that my hair was cut last week. That does not mean it was eternally cut.
Again, either Pr. Harrison severely misspoke (and needs to be corrected) or he needs some Greek lessons or he was intentional in his wording.
Ah, Chris. I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but sometimes ex-Lutherans seem to insist on putting the worst construction on their former Church. How many things critical have you written of Lutherans and the Lutheran Church since your conversion? It's huge, my friend. Staggeringly huge.
As for the Greek, I know you are a classist, but I'd put President Harrison up against you on that any day. One look at the shape of his Greek NT and you realize that he literally LIVES in its pages. Could he have stated this different and with more clarity? Of course, but he was combating the attitude one sometimes finds among Lutherans that it is "unLutheran" to have a crucifix since Christ is, after all, risen (and odd how it doesn't translate to not putting the baby in the manger come Christmas!). Against that attitude, he faithfully confesses that we know Christ Crucified. He remains eternally the Crucified One even as He remains eternally the Risen One.
Try putting the best construction on his words and see what happens when you lose the strongly critical attitude toward all things Lutheran. I hope you can receive that in the spirit I intend it, for I say it with no malice toward you. Pax!
I know you think that I'm just trying to find wrong things, but such is not the case. I'm very happy that Pr. Harrison is now your President and I was really pleased to hear his rebuttal to those who think of themselves as genuinely Lutheran but are iconoclastic towards art and its function in the Church. Again, it was that minor part of the speech which got me. If that little theological quip is really the Lutheran take then either I was taught wrong or there's something going on which I'm not aware of.
BTW, I don't know Pr. Harrison at all but I'm a fluent speaker of Greek and I pray in the Greek (I am Greek Orthodox). Please don't be so immediately dismissive.
15 comments:
Amazing.
What other historic LCMS churches approach that level of grandeur?
Hi Mark,
Try St. Lorenz in Frankenmuth, Mich.
and Trinity in Milwaukee, Wisconsin
Thank you for posting this, Pastor Weedon. I think it is an excellent and accurate discussion, and one which hopefully many will take to heart.
While not as awesome as those previously mentioned, I have found it a blessing to be at Zion in Columbus. I have taken my daughters up during Sunday School time and gone through our stained glass windows with them.
You can see some of Zion's insides on the Time Out Easter video.
If you want to look beyond LCMS
churches, there is St. Mary's
Cathedral on the campus of Notre
Dame in South Bend, Indiana and
The Chapel of the Resurrection on
the campus of Valpo.
The Air Force Academy Chapel in
Colorado Springs and the Navy Academy
Chapel near Baltimore.
St. Paul's in Fort Wayne is pretty sweet:
http://www.stpaulsfw.org/stpaul/Home.aspx
Pr. Harrison makes a very interesting, if not scandalous remark, that Christ is forever crucified. Yes, preach Christ crucified, but not that He is crucified forever! Where is the Resurrection then? It almost makes the Resurrection powerless. The Resurrection is the source of our faith for without it, St. Paul says in Romans, our faith is in VAIN.
Oh, he's just trying to get the force of the Greek verb into English. He remains the Crucified One, even as He remains the Risen Lord!
But the Greek verbs and verbals in the NT, particularly the Pauline corpus, are aorist or perfect which means an action that has been completed. EIther PR. Harrison misspoke or is in sore need of a Greek refresher course.
But let's just assume that his choice of words is completely intentional. I don't see how any Lutheran pastor can say that and not see the many theological pitfalls that would naturally ensue. If the Lord is eternally crucified, do Lutherans then partake of the Body and Blood of the Dead Lord Jesus? If Christ is eternally crucified, then how can you object to the Latin Canon of the Mass since that too deals with continued sacrifice? THe death and Resurrection of our Lord is one event. Dividing the episodes and say that both the Crucifixion and Resurrection are eternal side by side only makes for confusion.
The Lord's death is re-presented at every Divine Liturgy. It is a mystery. That is not one and the same as saying that he is eternally crucified. IF Christ's one time death was sufficient to take away the sins of the world, which is the standard hallmark of Lutheran preaching, then such a remark would seem to be utterly contradictory.
I think you are just reading too much into what he said: what he was trying to express is exactly what we sang during the Distribution this morning:
Paschal Lamb, Your offering finished
Once for all when You were slain,
In its fullness undiminished
Shall forevermore remain.
Alleluia! Alleluia!
Cleansing souls from every stain,
Cleansing souls from every stain.
P.S. It's also like the language in Revelation of the Lamb SLAIN from the foundation of the world. The Risen One remains forever He who was crucified - the scars testify to the sacrifice forever.
Fr. Weedon,
The hymn that you sung this morning with the phrase "that was slain" is NOT the same thing as "eternally slain" or "eternally crucified" or what have you. Those are two entirely disparate things linguistically. "Was slain" refers to an event that is complete. To say that Chris is "eternally slain" or "eternally crucified" suggests (pretty obviously) that Christ's crucifixion keeps happening and happening and that there is no end to it and that would seriously contradict the Scriptures, (q.v. Hebrews) where Christ's sacrifice is regarded as a one time event that took away the sins of the world. The two propositions are not the same. It would be like saying that my hair was cut last week. That does not mean it was eternally cut.
Again, either Pr. Harrison severely misspoke (and needs to be corrected) or he needs some Greek lessons or he was intentional in his wording.
Ah, Chris. I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but sometimes ex-Lutherans seem to insist on putting the worst construction on their former Church. How many things critical have you written of Lutherans and the Lutheran Church since your conversion? It's huge, my friend. Staggeringly huge.
As for the Greek, I know you are a classist, but I'd put President Harrison up against you on that any day. One look at the shape of his Greek NT and you realize that he literally LIVES in its pages. Could he have stated this different and with more clarity? Of course, but he was combating the attitude one sometimes finds among Lutherans that it is "unLutheran" to have a crucifix since Christ is, after all, risen (and odd how it doesn't translate to not putting the baby in the manger come Christmas!). Against that attitude, he faithfully confesses that we know Christ Crucified. He remains eternally the Crucified One even as He remains eternally the Risen One.
Try putting the best construction on his words and see what happens when you lose the strongly critical attitude toward all things Lutheran. I hope you can receive that in the spirit I intend it, for I say it with no malice toward you. Pax!
I know you think that I'm just trying to find wrong things, but such is not the case. I'm very happy that Pr. Harrison is now your President and I was really pleased to hear his rebuttal to those who think of themselves as genuinely Lutheran but are iconoclastic towards art and its function in the Church. Again, it was that minor part of the speech which got me. If that little theological quip is really the Lutheran take then either I was taught wrong or there's something going on which I'm not aware of.
BTW, I don't know Pr. Harrison at all but I'm a fluent speaker of Greek and I pray in the Greek (I am Greek Orthodox). Please don't be so immediately dismissive.
Post a Comment