A corollary to that is, "People hate the Office of the Ministry, or more specifically the pastor, because they really hate Christ's Ministry & Lordship over them."
Those who hate the liturgy do so because they are either ignorant of or hostile to the fact that the Word of God is enshrined in it.
Often they are eager to, from their standpoint, to change the liturgy or minimize it because they view it as an obstacle between themselves and the Creator. Ironically, in doing so, they ignore the words of the Creator Himself.
I think Papa Joe's onto something. I know some folks who hate the liturgy but are clueless about it. They might feel differently if they knew more of the history & purpose of the liturgy. I think all "cradle-to-grave" Lutherans should have to go to a Baptist* church for a few months, just to see how good they have it.
*Not that there's anything wrong with that. But there's no way I'm going through life without the liturgy and the sacraments.
Those who resist the liturgy do so because they over look and undervalue the expression of the Word of God which is enshrined in it and which it conveys with clarity.
Ah, I see Papa Joe beat me to it. Also, hard to reconcile overlooking with clarity, maybe pungency, but then everyone would think incense...
@mqll - If by hate "Evangelism" you mean hating the law based guilt trips that get thrown about by people with an Arminian, athropocentric view of election that tell me that unless I do something (which generally involves paying them to tinker with stuff that the previous evangelism plan tinkered with 4 years ago, and the next one will tinker with in another 4 years) then tons and tons of people will burn eternally in hell and it's all my fault -- then yes, by in large people who hate CoWo do most likely hate that "Evangelism" because it is chalk full of false doctrine, seeks to emotionally manipulate instead of teach, and worst of all diminishes the role and centrality of Christ.
76] Moreover, the declaration, John 6:44, that no one can come to Christ except the Father draw him, is right and true. However, the Father will not do this without means, but has ordained for this purpose His Word and Sacraments as ordinary means and instruments; and it is the will neither of the Father nor of the Son that a man should not hear or should despise the preaching of His Word, and wait for the drawing of the Father without the Word and Sacraments. For the Father draws indeed by the power of His Holy Ghost, however, according to His usual order [the order decreed and instituted by Himself], by the hearing of His holy, divine Word, as with a net, by which the elect are plucked from the jaws of the devil. 77] Every poor sinner should therefore repair thereto [to holy preaching], hear it attentively, and not doubt the drawing of the Father. For the Holy Ghost will be with His Word in His power, and work by it; and that is the drawing of the Father. (SD XI:76,77).
For a time I worshipped in an interdenominational Protestant church overseas. Against the wishes of the Baptist missionaries who were de facto in charge, those of us who favored historic liturgy managed to have a few liturgical services held. The local Africans who worshipped with us liked the liturgy because it made worshipping in a foreign language more accessible.
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A corollary to that is, "People hate the Office of the Ministry, or more specifically the pastor, because they really hate Christ's Ministry & Lordship over them."
If I may
Those who hate the liturgy do so because they are either ignorant of or hostile to the fact that the Word of God is enshrined in it.
Often they are eager to, from their standpoint, to change the liturgy or minimize it because they view it as an obstacle between themselves and the Creator. Ironically, in doing so, they ignore the words of the Creator Himself.
Whoa...deep
Rather than "hate" maybe "despise" -- for you can despise something out of ignorance and foolishness - whereas hatred is much more active.
Yes, "despise" is a much better & more accurate word, Pr. Brown.
I think Papa Joe's onto something. I know some folks who hate the liturgy but are clueless about it. They might feel differently if they knew more of the history & purpose of the liturgy. I think all "cradle-to-grave" Lutherans should have to go to a Baptist* church for a few months, just to see how good they have it.
*Not that there's anything wrong with that. But there's no way I'm going through life without the liturgy and the sacraments.
Say, that's a bit harsh; how about
Those who resist the liturgy do so because they over look and undervalue the expression of the Word of God which is enshrined in it and which it conveys with clarity.
Ah, I see Papa Joe beat me to it. Also, hard to reconcile overlooking with clarity, maybe pungency, but then everyone would think incense...
People who hate CoWo hate evangelism.
See? It is easy to be black and white.
@mqll - If by hate "Evangelism" you mean hating the law based guilt trips that get thrown about by people with an Arminian, athropocentric view of election that tell me that unless I do something (which generally involves paying them to tinker with stuff that the previous evangelism plan tinkered with 4 years ago, and the next one will tinker with in another 4 years) then tons and tons of people will burn eternally in hell and it's all my fault -- then yes, by in large people who hate CoWo do most likely hate that "Evangelism" because it is chalk full of false doctrine, seeks to emotionally manipulate instead of teach, and worst of all diminishes the role and centrality of Christ.
Very astute insight.
76] Moreover, the declaration, John 6:44, that no one can come to Christ except the Father draw him, is right and true. However, the Father will not do this without means, but has ordained for this purpose His Word and Sacraments as ordinary means and instruments; and it is the will neither of the Father nor of the Son that a man should not hear or should despise the preaching of His Word, and wait for the drawing of the Father without the Word and Sacraments. For the Father draws indeed by the power of His Holy Ghost, however, according to His usual order [the order decreed and instituted by Himself], by the hearing of His holy, divine Word, as with a net, by which the elect are plucked from the jaws of the devil. 77] Every poor sinner should therefore repair thereto [to holy preaching], hear it attentively, and not doubt the drawing of the Father. For the Holy Ghost will be with His Word in His power, and work by it; and that is the drawing of the Father. (SD XI:76,77).
I was adult baptized need I say more?
I went to a Baptist Church and that is why I love the Liturgy!
For a time I worshipped in an interdenominational Protestant church overseas. Against the wishes of the Baptist missionaries who were de facto in charge, those of us who favored historic liturgy managed to have a few liturgical services held. The local Africans who worshipped with us liked the liturgy because it made worshipping in a foreign language more accessible.
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