27 October 2009

Excellent Words

from Fr. Messer on The Eucharist.


Past Elder said...

The words are absolutely excellent for a Lutheran context.

Re Tiber swimming though, I find it interesting that on neither the Catholic nor the (ex) Lutheran side, the matter of Orders did not come up at all.

In that context, confessing the Real Presence isn't enough, believing doesn't make it so, so just frustration at the lack of confessing it among us, should it incline one to the Tiber, should also if one is going to swim the bleeder entail coming to believe that a common belief better confessed there doesn't mean jack because part of the confession, as it were, there is that believe it as we may we don't have it due to lack of proper Orders, for which one would then swim the ruddy Tiber.

Past Elder said...

Judas, the second paragraph should have read:

Re Tiber swimming though, I find it interesting that on neither the Catholic nor the (ex) Lutheran side did the matter of Orders come up at all.

Rather than leave it to later editors of the Complete Works of Past Elder at CPH, or Sämtliche Werke in the typical edition, I have corrected it here already.

Dixie said...

Yes, that seems odd to me, too. I am surprised by what was not said.

This also bothered me.

The reason both former Lutheran pastors left Lutheranism and went "home" to Rome was not because Rome had the Real Presence and Lutherans didn't, but rather because, in their estimation and experience, Rome took the Real Presence seriously and Lutherans didn't. They had become dissatisfied with the flippancy they witnessed among many Lutherans surrounding the Holy Meal. They pointed to the use of plastic, disposal, individual cups during the Distribution and how those cups were thrown in the trash after the Service, and to the growing trend within their Lutheran denominations toward contemporary worship formats which, in their estimation, contradicted what Lutherans claim to believe, teach, and confess.

I don't understand how a person can believe everything Lutherans are to believe and give that up on the basis of praxis around the Lord's Supper to go to Rome--which has it's own praxis issues as well as flirtations with contemporary worship (not that we don't all suffer in one way or another from these influences). I can't help but think something is missing from this story or that if this is the whole story the two men will be very disappointed down the road.

When I was taking my Lutheran Lay Ministry instruction one of our required texts was a small book about a Protestant converting to the Episcopal church because of the Sacraments. I do think if a person allows himself he will eventually thirst for the Sacraments.

Past Elder said...

You got that right, Dixie. I swam the Tiber too -- out! You think LCMS is a mess, wait until you see the postconciliar RCC from the inside, not on EWTN and reading about it.

Been there, done that, and a thousand praise bands, ten thousand Kieschnicks, a hundred thousand "contemporary worships" and forced wearing of an Ablaze! wristband would not incline me to back.

christl242 said...

Ditto for what Past Elder and Dixie said.

That's the bottom line, the matter of "Holy Orders" as Rome understands it. And according to Rome we Lutherans don't have it, ergo, we don't have the Eucharist.

To which I say, baloney.

Nor is EWTN representative of what goes on in most Catholic parishes.


Past Elder said...

God bless me sideways then drag me through the streets.

Maybe I should post this on Pastor Messer's too, but here it is:

I'm gonna introduce an overture at Houston to ban all viewing of EWTN for LCMS blackbirds.

You guys are getting NOTHING like a view into Catholicism, pre or post conciliar, from watching this stuff, and it's messing all of you all up, seriously dudes.

If you think you're fondling gazing on something you wish you had something like it around you, you will be doing exactly the same thing if you swim the Tiber.

The fact is, the Catholic bishop in whose jurisdiction EWTN lies has banned any Mass to be said ad orientam, which in turn brought about an "apostolic visitation" from Rome, which in turn brought about a severance of the sister's convent from the station so it would not be under church jurisdiction, which in turn demonstrates that getting all glossy eyed about having clowns in funny hats leading the parade solving anything is just hookum too, and that EWTN is an anomaly within Catholcism and not in the least typical of it nor supported by it however many trappings they keep.

William Weedon said...


Yes, I believe people really are hungering for the Sacraments, even when they don't realize that IS what they are hungering for.