It's origin wasn't actually Romophobia, but its retention likely is. German in the early 16th century didn't have the word that later became Katolische and so it was common parlance to use Christliche (it even shows up in the BOC in the German rendering of the Athanasian Creed as "rechte Christliche"). That's what early Lutheran liturgies in Germany did; and that's how it got into ours when they translated them into English. Though why they should retain all of the Prayer Book's translation SAVE that word is beyond me. I suspect it will be corrected next time a book is done; it almost was corrected this time, but there was still enough folks rumbling about it to make the committee back off. Sheer silliness to retain a linguistic convention of 16th century German in 21st century English! The Episcopalians, the Methodists, the Presbyterians - they all have no problem with saying "catholic" - and English speaking Lutherans obviously don't for the Athanasian Creed.
Thanks Rev. Weedon, that clears up why the LSB and why some other books use “Christian”. I learned the Ecumenical Creeds from bookofconcord.org. It reads “catholic”, just like the ancient text. I’m with Scott; I drive my family and everyone near me crazy. I actually felt the word swap was a nudging away from Jesus’ fervent prayer that we be one.
During the creation of the LSB, wasn't there any move to replace Christian in the creed with Catholic? Or did the Romaphobes make a full court press to retain it?
You all need to think of the matter more pastorally, from inside the Lutheran tradition. Here in the LCMS we've had a way of confessing the Creed as long as these folks remember that is perfectly clear to them: Christian, they understand. Catholic, usually needs an explanation. The test material for LSB did indeed include catholic in the Creed; we used those test materials in my own parish and here (as was typical elsewhere) the term was troubling to them - a change that didn't seem to update language (as the other changes did) but to ring foreign in their ears. Yes, it was the original term, and now at least, every user of the LSB can see that for themselves in the footnote beneath the Creed, originally catholic! In the long run, it was decided that this was a change that wasn't imperative for our churches at this time, though it was important for our people to learn that the original has "catholic" at this spot and what it means. That's the route taken. FWIW.
P.S. I've been known to say "catholic" myself when reciting the Creed. :)
Try thinking of it in terms of setting an unnecessary stumbling block before a weaker brother. There's no question that your position is right on - but can you see why even a "right on" position is sometimes allowed to be set aside so as not to cause needless offense?
I am not a pastor, Fr. William and I think, after knowing many priests and what they go through, I would not want the job. However, I don't think that sanctioning bad teaching (Christian is NOT the same as Catholic) because people are not used to it is exactly why many churches, especially in the Protestant mainline churches, are so adrift in a turbulent sea of competing theologies. If the people can't get over catholic because of their Romaphobia, then the problem is clearly with them and they need to get over it. Their egos need to be checked. As pastor, I think you would be all for that. If you're unwilling to educate them because of fear of offending their sensibilities [and I'm speaking generally, not specifically towards you, Fr. William], then you're in the wrong field. Forgive me for being blunt.
The Orthodox have never feared the word Catholic and I guarantee that we have a lot more reason to be upset with Catholics than Lutherans do. :)
I understand since there was no direct translation for "Catholic" the German word "Christian" was used when the creed was translated into the vernacular. Before Luther's time...would the Creed have been translated from Latin into German? Do we have evidence of that and of the translation? What do Germans Roman Catholics say today?
No points to make...just curious in how things evolve. Thanks. (I fully admit my prior behavior in reciting the creed, as mentioned earlier, was obnoxious--those were difficult times.)
Rev. Weedon and McCain, you are both very wise teachers. Thank you for edifying in such a kind and gentle way. Force never works. I personally embrace the pure Gospel, be it from Rome or the East. I love and hold high church and Icons dearly. How sweet is the Rublev’s Icon of the Trinity? There is some lightening up needed here. We are all in agreement the direction things need to go. Think about the addition of the filioque clause we observe which was handed down from the Roman tradition. This Sunday I will worship in spirit and truth, not be a stumbling block, participate in celebrating the Eucharist, and continue to pray that we be one.
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It's origin wasn't actually Romophobia, but its retention likely is. German in the early 16th century didn't have the word that later became Katolische and so it was common parlance to use Christliche (it even shows up in the BOC in the German rendering of the Athanasian Creed as "rechte Christliche"). That's what early Lutheran liturgies in Germany did; and that's how it got into ours when they translated them into English. Though why they should retain all of the Prayer Book's translation SAVE that word is beyond me. I suspect it will be corrected next time a book is done; it almost was corrected this time, but there was still enough folks rumbling about it to make the committee back off. Sheer silliness to retain a linguistic convention of 16th century German in 21st century English! The Episcopalians, the Methodists, the Presbyterians - they all have no problem with saying "catholic" - and English speaking Lutherans obviously don't for the Athanasian Creed.
Like I just noticed "it's" instead of "its" you mean?
Thanks Rev. Weedon, that clears up why the LSB and why some other books use “Christian”. I learned the Ecumenical Creeds from bookofconcord.org. It reads “catholic”, just like the ancient text. I’m with Scott; I drive my family and everyone near me crazy. I actually felt the word swap was a nudging away from Jesus’ fervent prayer that we be one.
During the creation of the LSB, wasn't there any move to replace Christian in the creed with Catholic? Or did the Romaphobes make a full court press to retain it?
I’m with Scott; I drive my family and everyone near me crazy.
LOL! I used to do the SAME thing...much to the frustration of my husband and our sons.
You all need to think of the matter more pastorally, from inside the Lutheran tradition. Here in the LCMS we've had a way of confessing the Creed as long as these folks remember that is perfectly clear to them: Christian, they understand. Catholic, usually needs an explanation. The test material for LSB did indeed include catholic in the Creed; we used those test materials in my own parish and here (as was typical elsewhere) the term was troubling to them - a change that didn't seem to update language (as the other changes did) but to ring foreign in their ears. Yes, it was the original term, and now at least, every user of the LSB can see that for themselves in the footnote beneath the Creed, originally catholic! In the long run, it was decided that this was a change that wasn't imperative for our churches at this time, though it was important for our people to learn that the original has "catholic" at this spot and what it means. That's the route taken. FWIW.
P.S. I've been known to say "catholic" myself when reciting the Creed. :)
Scott,
Try thinking of it in terms of setting an unnecessary stumbling block before a weaker brother. There's no question that your position is right on - but can you see why even a "right on" position is sometimes allowed to be set aside so as not to cause needless offense?
Yes, and God is more patient than we...
I am not a pastor, Fr. William and I think, after knowing many priests and what they go through, I would not want the job. However, I don't think that sanctioning bad teaching (Christian is NOT the same as Catholic) because people are not used to it is exactly why many churches, especially in the Protestant mainline churches, are so adrift in a turbulent sea of competing theologies. If the people can't get over catholic because of their Romaphobia, then the problem is clearly with them and they need to get over it. Their egos need to be checked. As pastor, I think you would be all for that. If you're unwilling to educate them because of fear of offending their sensibilities [and I'm speaking generally, not specifically towards you, Fr. William], then you're in the wrong field. Forgive me for being blunt.
The Orthodox have never feared the word Catholic and I guarantee that we have a lot more reason to be upset with Catholics than Lutherans do. :)
The history of saying "Christian" instead of "Catholic" goes way back in Western Church history, it is not some kind of American Lutheran quirk.
The Germans were saying "Church" instead of "Catholic" in the Middle Ages already.
So, no biggie.
I understand since there was no direct translation for "Catholic" the German word "Christian" was used when the creed was translated into the vernacular. Before Luther's time...would the Creed have been translated from Latin into German? Do we have evidence of that and of the translation? What do Germans Roman Catholics say today?
No points to make...just curious in how things evolve. Thanks. (I fully admit my prior behavior in reciting the creed, as mentioned earlier, was obnoxious--those were difficult times.)
Rev. Weedon and McCain, you are both very wise teachers. Thank you for edifying in such a kind and gentle way. Force never works. I personally embrace the pure Gospel, be it from Rome or the East. I love and hold high church and Icons dearly. How sweet is the Rublev’s Icon of the Trinity? There is some lightening up needed here. We are all in agreement the direction things need to go. Think about the addition of the filioque clause we observe which was handed down from the Roman tradition. This Sunday I will worship in spirit and truth, not be a stumbling block, participate in celebrating the Eucharist, and continue to pray that we be one.
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