I'm not sure what to say about Pr. Beane's post except to note that if you look closely at Orthodoxy, you are likely to see exactly what you are looking for...what it is you really want to see.
If you are looking for heresy, you will find it - if you are looking for nationalism, you will find it - if you are looking for scandal, you will find it. (Funny how I found all these things in Lutheranism, too - maybe that's why I wasn't so shocked). But most importantly, if you are looking for Truth, you will find that, too.
The post was a bit defensive, I thought. It would quite easy for some Orthodox blogger to find a similar laundry list of Lutheran errors to link to.
With all due respect, my question is, what good purpose does it serve?
The helpful purpose would be to open the eyes of Lutherans who contemplate converting to Orthodoxy, reminding them of the sad truth about the state of the pilgrim Church in ANY jurisdiction. The magnification of the ills in Lutheranism and the minimizing of the ills in Orthodoxy has not been unknown. Convertitis is a sad but predictable phenomenon - and one that I'm sure you've seen, but which (though I know you are an Orthodox convert) you've done a wonderful job of not giving into. Thanks for that.
But, Pr. Weedon, your comment/quote there about repentance and humility is really the key thing...what makes the nature of these discussions so disturbing.
It's precisely what's missing from some on both sides of the issue.
It was precisely the lack of humility and the 'my dad can beat up your dad' nature of discussion that led me to start the Lutherans Looking East list. I wanted a place where real questions could be asked without the perceived need to defend one's own position, which is what happens in 'open forums' where each side is given 'equal footing' such as the Orthodox-Lutheran Dialogue list and on most blogs. Simple inquiry was the goal of LLE, to whatever end the questioner wanted (e.g., conversion, basic education, etc.). There's no use answering questions someone doesn't want your answer to. Of course, simple correction of facts is where most of us get into these discussions, but one can't truly compartmentalize these sorts of things and tangents abound.
Personally, apart from the tone and the assumption that Orthodox converts are somehow hiding these 'bad' things, I think Fr. Hollywood's post is important. If someone is converting thinking Orthodoxy is perfection and lack of struggle isn't looking clearly - and isn't reading the Fathers' experience of the same Church clearly. If someone is trying to convert to get away from problems and struggles in their old church, then they aren't converting so much as purchasing a new brand that will be thrown away when fashion and taste changes - or when the storms rise up. You can only convert to Orthodoxy, not from anything else.
Well, you know, we don't like 'insights' and 'innovations', we prefer the faith once deliverer to the saints. :)
You are broadly correct. While there is a great deal of overlap between Lutheranism and Orthodoxy, much we share in common, there are also significant, paradigmatic differences on important issues. One either accepts the very particular definition of terms and a schema of how things 'work', and particular ways of reading history and Scripture, and this leads one to be this or that or the other thing. Intellectually we are talking about authority in matters of faith, but underlying that is both the work of the Holy Trinity in and around us, our own will and our preferences in things familial, vocational, economic (for some), etc., as well as the devil, the world and our sinful flesh.
9 comments:
I'm not sure what to say about Pr. Beane's post except to note that if you look closely at Orthodoxy, you are likely to see exactly what you are looking for...what it is you really want to see.
If you are looking for heresy, you will find it - if you are looking for nationalism, you will find it - if you are looking for scandal, you will find it. (Funny how I found all these things in Lutheranism, too - maybe that's why I wasn't so shocked). But most importantly, if you are looking for Truth, you will find that, too.
The post was a bit defensive, I thought. It would quite easy for some Orthodox blogger to find a similar laundry list of Lutheran errors to link to.
With all due respect, my question is, what good purpose does it serve?
FWIW.
-C,
The helpful purpose would be to open the eyes of Lutherans who contemplate converting to Orthodoxy, reminding them of the sad truth about the state of the pilgrim Church in ANY jurisdiction. The magnification of the ills in Lutheranism and the minimizing of the ills in Orthodoxy has not been unknown. Convertitis is a sad but predictable phenomenon - and one that I'm sure you've seen, but which (though I know you are an Orthodox convert) you've done a wonderful job of not giving into. Thanks for that.
This is just asking for combox trouble - nothing but Rx and McHominems. :)
Christopher's right.
But, Pr. Weedon, your comment/quote there about repentance and humility is really the key thing...what makes the nature of these discussions so disturbing.
It's precisely what's missing from some on both sides of the issue.
Thanks for sharing it there.
It was precisely the lack of humility and the 'my dad can beat up your dad' nature of discussion that led me to start the Lutherans Looking East list. I wanted a place where real questions could be asked without the perceived need to defend one's own position, which is what happens in 'open forums' where each side is given 'equal footing' such as the Orthodox-Lutheran Dialogue list and on most blogs. Simple inquiry was the goal of LLE, to whatever end the questioner wanted (e.g., conversion, basic education, etc.). There's no use answering questions someone doesn't want your answer to. Of course, simple correction of facts is where most of us get into these discussions, but one can't truly compartmentalize these sorts of things and tangents abound.
Personally, apart from the tone and the assumption that Orthodox converts are somehow hiding these 'bad' things, I think Fr. Hollywood's post is important. If someone is converting thinking Orthodoxy is perfection and lack of struggle isn't looking clearly - and isn't reading the Fathers' experience of the same Church clearly. If someone is trying to convert to get away from problems and struggles in their old church, then they aren't converting so much as purchasing a new brand that will be thrown away when fashion and taste changes - or when the storms rise up. You can only convert to Orthodoxy, not from anything else.
Which is another way of saying, Christopher, that you cannot carry the essential insights of Lutherans into Orthodoxy; you can only renounce them.
I'm not sure what your last post means, Pr. Weedon. Which are those "essential insights of Lutheranism" you have in mind here?
Well, you know, we don't like 'insights' and 'innovations', we prefer the faith once deliverer to the saints. :)
You are broadly correct. While there is a great deal of overlap between Lutheranism and Orthodoxy, much we share in common, there are also significant, paradigmatic differences on important issues. One either accepts the very particular definition of terms and a schema of how things 'work', and particular ways of reading history and Scripture, and this leads one to be this or that or the other thing. Intellectually we are talking about authority in matters of faith, but underlying that is both the work of the Holy Trinity in and around us, our own will and our preferences in things familial, vocational, economic (for some), etc., as well as the devil, the world and our sinful flesh.
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